Enlightenment: Is There an End Game?

[legendary]

Tom Campbell is a unique figure in modern spirituality, because he presents arcane metaphysical concepts in a very left-brained manner. He also talks about paranormal phenomena a lot.

This is an interesting video of his, where he proposes that there is  no liberation, and that once you reduce your entropy sufficiently (i.e. dissolve your karma), there are still ways in which you can serve; if not in this reality, then in some other.

Last weekend, I was at a meditation intensive with Jan Esmann. Jan is highly Self-realised, can awaken other people's Kundalini by simply looking at them, and describes his state as beyond Sahaja Samadhi (Stage 9/10 from the Ox-Herding pictures). He was asked what he thought about Tom's proposition.

He said that it is probably true and that it is possible that one's consciousness is on a seemingly never ending journey. Later, he also said that he isn't 'done', and that he knows that he will be reborn again.

I found this quite counter-intuitive and intriguing, so I thought I'd share this.

[Salvijus]

This is messed up...

How can there be no liberation? If there's bondage there's bount to be a liberation. 

Consciousness may be evolving infinity without ever reaching "done" 

But karma is just memory and cycles. If you keep dissolving all cycles of course you'll reach 0. It's just common sense.

Also i don't think he means karma when he uses word "entropy".

Too bad my understanding of this subject and articulation is not crystal clear, otherwise i would smash that guy pretty hard...

I think he is not tauching the subject of liberation. He's just claiming that there's no limit to what human consciousness can do. Which is very much likely to be true.

But at the end he says there's no end, you'll come back again and again... Well i don't understand how he came to that conclusion. He's just makes pretty random statements i think. He says consciousness is ever evolving... Okey it's true. And then he says, because consciousness is ever evolving you can't brake the cycles........ This is just ridiculous statement which makes no sense. ever evolving consciousness and it's possibilities has nothing to do with braking samsaras.

I also get the idea that he thinks becoming love is the highest goal.... Which is pretty ridiculous again... 

It feels like he has no idea about anything, he's just phylosophyzing random ideas. Does he even meditate? Or he's just a phylosopher? 

Anyways.... I wish @Arhattobe was around. He has a very comprehensive understanding of Bhuddhism and karma...

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Salvijus

[Nahm]

 

10 minutes ago, legendary said:

Tom Campbell is a unique figure in modern spirituality, because he presents arcane metaphysical concepts in a very left-brained manner. He also talks about paranormal phenomena a lot.

Always loved Tom Campbell and his work. There’s some deep infinite humor in his work. (That is meant to be a compliment)

This is an interesting video of his, where he proposes that there is  no liberation, and that once you reduce your entropy sufficiently (i.e. dissolve your karma), there are still ways in which you can serve; if not in this reality, then in some other.

Relatively speaking, if you resolve your karma / reduce your entropy - that is liberation. One can ‘serve’ regardless of where they’re at with this, and imo being of service is perhaps the best path to resolving / karma. There is not however “some other reality”. I believe Tom is using the term “reduce your entropy sufficiently” in a very generous sense. That he is using a word from science and implying it can be used spiritually onto consciousness. The usage is only correct if there is an understanding that whatever has the property of entropy, is actually nothing more than consciousness, but therefore, “it” doesn’t;t have any properties, even entropy. 

Absolutely speaking, there is no liberation, nor entropy, karma, or possibility of serving. And again, no “other reality”. 

Last weekend, I was at a meditation intensive with Jan Esmann. Jan is highly Self-realised, can awaken other people's Kundalini by simply looking at them, and describes his state as beyond Sahaja Samadhi (Stage 9/10 from the Ox-Herding pictures). He was asked what he thought about Tom's proposition.

There is a misunderstanding or miscommunication there. It is not possible for one person to awaken another person’s kundalini by looking at them. Each person is quite literally The One, Reality Itself, appearing not to be via duality / relativity / “forgetting” via “an appearance of reality”. So, there is absolutely not the possibility to assert anything, no matter how well intentioned, “onto” another person. To make such a claim is to claim that you can assert onto God. It’s a rather outrageous obnoxious implication, so I trust there is a misunderstanding somewhere.

There is however, a possible scenario of say someone who is nearly self realized (say, “Tom”), being in the presence of someone (say “Jan”) who Tom considers to be “fully self realized”, and the “power of mind” (“Tom’s”) is such that Tom could use the experience of being in Jan’s presence, and unknowingly “give himself permission” without realizing he did, to be fully self realized. Then, it could seem to Tom, and even to Jan, that Jan’s presence was the actual literal catalyst for Tom’s self realization. Although - if Jan is indeed fully self realized, he would know very well these nuances I’m mentioning, and would know he did not cause Tom’s self realization. But it’s quite tricky, because if I was Jan, knowing what I know, and because I’d want nothing more for Tom (or anyone else) than to be awakened - I’d be very tempted to go ahead and say I could be the catalyst, knowing Tom believes I could be. Also worth noting however (I said it was tricky!) in the moment Tom did become self realized, he would immediately be fully aware that I did not cause his self realization.    That’s weird & mindf’y but true. 

He said that it is probably true and that it is possible that one's consciousness is on a seemingly never ending journey.

(Consciousness = infinity)

Later, he also said that he isn't 'done', and that he knows that he will be reborn again.

“Done” is a thought, not actuality...it’s like that old riddle - what happened when the unstoppable force meets the immovable object. What is infinite can not be “done”. 

I found this quite counter-intuitive and intriguing, so I thought I'd share this.

It’s a great share. Like those cherry snow cone things...with the gum all at the bottom. Yum. If I’m not mistaken, to understand this requires intuition, then counter intuition, then counter to counter intuition, then counter intuition, then a return to intuition. Lol. You’d have to be crazy for it to make any sense. 

 

[Nahm]

@Salvijus You underestimate ‘liberation’ a little there imo. You are so free in fact, that you can believe you are in bondage. When there’s liberation, then there was no bondage, and no liberation. ? In the same sense that there is no limit, and there is not no limit, to what human consciousness can do, because there is no such thing as human consciousness. It’s like how one must surrender all beliefs, to then see how powerful their beliefs are. 

[Salvijus]

@Nahm lol... You have a lot to learn about karma yet...

I understand what you say. Consciousness is always free... But that's not enough. Even if you're in nondual state where nothing can touch you and there's no suffering. You're still not free. Karma is holding you in this body like a bondage and karma will not allow you to escape. You will reincarnate endlessly untill you brake all your attachments in this world, untill you reach perfect equanimity, no cravings no aversions, no movement at all in your mind, that's the end of karma and that's the ultimate state of freedom. Not a nondual state or samadhi but to end the cycles of reincarnation. That's Mukti, mahasamadhi or ultimate liberation.

This is a dangerous territory for me to speak about since I don't have crystal clear understanding in this. But it's also the most amazing, and the most advanced teaching. Which very rare enlightenment beings talk about. I know only Gautama the Bhuddha and sadhguru are the only two people who goes this deep....

I'm sure there are plenty of others but not into mainstream.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Salvijus

[legendary]

5 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Mukti or ultimate liberation.

@Salvijus the point Tom Campbell is trying to make is that the idea of liberation from suffering is born from the same self-identifying mechanism that creates suffering.

I have not experienced past lives or anything of that sort, so any talk about karma is nothing more than runination from me.

Why would you want to Mukti so bad? Because current state of ego-identification and self-deception create a lot of misery.

If one were swallowed by love and devotion for the Absolute, as some highly Self-realised beings are, perhaps they don't care about liberation anymore. 

[Salvijus]

39 minutes ago, legendary said:

 

If one were swallowed by love and devotion for the Absolute, as some highly Self-realised beings are, perhaps they don't care about liberation anymore. 

That's impossible. Once you're aware that you're limited, you will want to brake that boundary. 

No one can be satisfied living in bondage, the desire is always to become limitless.

Thats the ultimate law of consciousness. It's never satisfied until it become boundless. You can never find full fullfilment with any experience. Because every state is limited doesn't matter how beautiful it  appears to be.

Only nothingness has no limits. To be limitless one has to become nothing, cease to exist forever, cease all cycles of birth and death. It's a longing that every human being has. 

39 minutes ago, legendary said:

 

Why would you want to Mukti so bad? Because current state of ego-identification and self-deception create a lot of misery.

 

That's not how it goes. People who are suffering they don't seek mukti. They only seek pleasure and happyness. They want fancy nondual experience, to be free from the torture of the mind. But they don't want to dissolve no no no

Only those people who tasted this life totally. Who are blissful always, only for those people a desire to cease to exist arises in them. A desire to become boundless arises in them. Untill then every spiritual seeker just pretends to seek liberation when in fact they just wants happyness and be free from suffering.

When you reach happyness then the next desire becomes cease to exist, become boundless, Mukti.

"Suffering will not seek" #sadhguru

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Salvijus

[Nahm]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

@Nahm lol... You have a lot to learn about karma yet...

That has to be True because I don’t know anything. 

13 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

But at the end he says there's no end, you'll come back again and again...

There’s no end to infinite consciousness. No beginning either.  “End” and “begining” are actually thoughts - assumptions projected on the thought “afterlife”, based on observation of a “physical reality”, but there is no such thing as “observation of physical reality”. You see that way because you identify with the body/brain, you identify with you having a begining and ending. You do not though.   

He’s not referring to ego / finite / separate entity or person perspective, because he is liberated and knows those are not actual “things” - he knows he is not a “thing”.  When he says “you’ll come back again and again”, he is saying this from the absolute perspective, knowing there is no relative perspective in actuality....that consciousness is what people are, and it is all that people are - there is literally no such thing as “person” or “people”.

That is typically not an easy realization, but a possible mind opener / pointer would be to take note of the difference between your experience of any other person, in contrast to your experience of yourself, of being you. Look into it the difference enough, and you’ll realize that the only way to remain ‘in bondage’, is to ignore this apparent difference. What has been thus far unnoticed and deemed “mystical” or “enlightenment”, becomes so obvious, you’d wonder how you ever missed it. 

The great news is, you are not “alive” right now, and you don’t “die”. The catch is, if you keep thinking you are alive, the unresolved falsity Will be refuted by Truth (You) and perpetuate emotions attempting to autoresolve the falsity, fueling overthinking. When attention is on the subject matter of life & death, you therefore will be experiencing the “coming back again and again”, “in your mind” - not in physical reality - because there is no such thing as physical reality. Furthermore, there’s only now, literally. No past, no past lives. No future, no future lives.      Now - you have memories of what you’ve learned in Buddhism etc. You learned it now. The memory is experienced now. The nature of the memory experienced now is that it “points to” a “past”. But notice, you do not experience the past, you experience a memory, now. A memory is exactly the same as any other thought - it is the belief that a memory is different from a thought which makes it appear to be the case. A belief is also not “of the past”, it is a thought, which is repeated over and over again, now. 

Well i don't understand how he came to that conclusion. He's just makes pretty random statements i think.

There is no such thing as random. That is also a thought. When there is more information and more variables than are comprehended, in an attempt to make sense of experience, arises a thought “random”. But it’s just a thought, like luck, coincidence, etc. 

He says consciousness is ever evolving... Okey it's true.

No, it’s not true. It is not possible for infinity (consciousness) to evolve. Whatever it could evolve into, or become, it already is, as it is infinite. Whatever that “thing” consciousness could “evolve into” might be, it is not other-than consciousness. “Evolving”, and or “evolution” is nothing more than apparent change. When you mistake the change for physicality, then you add “time” to make it make sense, to jive - with you - because you think you can evolve, and or “become” something. Your body can do new things, your brain can learn new things (in appearance) but you can not - because you are infinity - you are wholer than a mofo wether you’ve realized it or not. You are so dynamic and powerful, that you can literally forget you are God. You can only appear to evolve. This points back to the difference between your experience of another person, compared to your experience of yourself. What you experience of ‘another person’ can only be maya, illusory. Because, you are “I am”, and they are “I am”, you can not truly see them, or “their I am”, because you are I am - - -  “the tongue can not taste itself”. 

And then he says, because consciousness is ever evolving you can't brake the cycles........ This is just ridiculous statement which makes no sense. ever evolving consciousness and it's possibilities has nothing to do with braking samsaras.

If you truly let go of the verbiage / definitions / your own meaning -  like “samaras” -, it would be plain as day to you. God is “being” all people. All people are actually Being. Hence “human being”. Perhaps you have been putting to much accent on the “human” part, and sort of ignoring the “being” part? There aren’t really any individual people. But you’re God, so as long as you want there to be individual people, there is - to you. Notice, no matter what I say or type - I could even be nailed to a cross in front of everyone just to try to get you to see the Truth - and it won’t work, because no one can tell God what to do, or how to see. The “cycles” are his reference, again, not from the relative perspective, but from having seen through the relative perspective, knowing there is no such thing. It is because he has surrendered himself to Truth - there are no cycles - but now he try’s to tell you this - and you imply your relative perspective onto it. 

I also get the idea that he thinks becoming love is the highest goal.... Which is pretty ridiculous again... 

Agreed. You can not become what you are. But perhaps he uses the word “become” in consession logically, to the relative state of the audience. 

It feels like he has no idea about anything, he's just phylosophyzing random ideas. Does he even meditate? Or he's just a phylosopher? 

Well now you’re just ripping on him. Lol just kiddin man. 

 

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

@Nahm

I understand what you say.

What is understanding?

Consciousness is always free... But that's not enough.

(Face palm) Ya, I know. It’s “never enough”. Always gotta be more. ??

Even if you're in nondual state where nothing can touch you and there's no suffering. You're still not free. Karma is holding you in this body like a bondage and karma will not allow you to escape.

For as long as you believe that, you hold yourself in bondage.  You might buy the justification, but some know better. Surrender it, in the humble realization & admittance to yourself that it is just a thought, a belief, - someone else’s thought expressed in Buddhism which you learned, bought into, and repeatedly think / believe - - - Surrender that - and you are immediately free. 

You will reincarnate endlessly untill you brake it. That's the ultimate freedom. Not a nondual state or samadhi but to end the cycles of reincarnation. That's Mukti or ultimate liberation.

You are now. You are God. You are All There Is. 

 

 

[Nahm]

@Salvijus

Don’t be satisfied today, don’t acquiesce today. My spidey senses suggest today is your Day.

“Mukti” has become the finger, you must look at the moon. 

[Nahm]

54 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's the only possiblility. Once you're aware that you're not actually limited, you will no longer want to brake that “boundary”. 

Each one can be satisfied “living” in bondage, knowing the desire is always to become limitless, until you realize you are limitless, and you created limits.

There are no ultimate laws of consciousness. It's always satisfied because it’s always boundless. You can never find full fullfilment with any experience. Because you are fulfillment - every state is limited doesn't matter how beautiful “it” appears to be, you know “it”,  is you. 

Only nothingness has no limits. To be limitless one can not desire to become nothing, nor to cease to exist forever, nor to cease all cycles of birth and death. It's a longing that every human being has, and a surrender each has the right to.

That's how it goes. People who are suffering don't care about or have time for mukti. They only seek to end suffering pleasure and happyness. They want peace fancy nondual experience, to be free from the torture of the mind. But they don't want to dissolve, but they don’t  no no no...know how 

Only those people who surrendered tasted this life totally. Who are blissful always, only for those people a desire to cease to exist arises in them. A desire to become boundlessness arises in them. Untill then every spiritual seeker just pretends to seek liberation when in fact they just are a beautiful, unknowing, expression of God want happyness and be free from suffering.

When you reach realize you are happyness then the next desires becomes cease to exist, become you are boundless, Mukti.

"Suffering will not seek" #sadhguru

“Because suffering does not exist” #someotherguy

 

[AstralProjection]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

Only nothingness has no limits. To be limitless one has to become nothing, cease to exist forever, cease all

You have a long way to go. Look at the ascended angels they are not nothing, they work through the power of God. Gods will becomes their will. Do you want to see someone that attained immortality his name is John Chang, or electric eel man. And even this guy admits that we have undreamed of powers. And I assure you that these powers are are not nothingness.

John Chang - Mo Pai Nei Kung 

 

 

2 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

It feels like he has no idea about anything, he's just phylosophyzing random ideas. Does he even meditate? Or he's just a phylosopher?

 

I know about Tom Campbell he's a highly advanced astral projector and ex-NASA physicist. As you advance spiritually you realize that even advanced teachers disagree with each other on some of the more abstract spiritual ideas. Don't hold that against him. He's doing the best he can with what he's learned spiritually.

Edited March 6, 2019 by AstralProjection

[Salvijus]

@Nahm i understand that I'm consciousness ever present, ever perfect, etc... 

I'm not arguing with you at all. All you say i agree. But you simply don't know anything about karma. That's why it's a pointless conversation.

@AstralProjection  somethingness is always limited. all the magic powers, all immortality is something and somethingness is always limited. 

There's no other way. It's unbrakeable logic to say only nothingness has no limits.  It's impossible for this to be false. 

9 hours ago, AstralProjection said:

 

I know about Tom Campbell he's a highly advanced astral projector and ex-NASA physicist. As you advance spiritually you realize that even advanced teachers disagree with each other on some of the more abstract spiritual ideas. Don't hold that against him. He's doing the best he can with what he's learned spiritually.

Yeah i was hard on him but i wish i was even harder because his full of bull. 

No.... Advanced spiritual masters dont disagree with themselfs. Only fools and phylosophiers like tom come up with random statements which make no sense. He even uses words like "I think"… "i guess" "that's my opinion" like that... He's just a random phylosopher. A guru is not a phylosopher, guru knows life inside out from experience. What a guru says is not ant opinions it's a fountain of truth.

There are scriptures written thousands of years ago by realized beings and since then nothing changed at all, nothing new has been sayed. Everything that could happen here and beyond is all written down and it stayed the same until now .

If two spiritual masters disagree then one of them is a fake guru who knows nothing at all. Basic logic... Either you know the truths of life or you're speculating about life and are unwilling to say idk. Truth is the same for everyone. If both know the truth they will not argue.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Salvijus

[legendary]

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

Absolutely speaking, there is no liberation, nor entropy, karma, or possibility of serving. And again, no “other reality”. 

 

Agree with you. Thanks for sharing your insights

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

There is a misunderstanding or miscommunication there. It is not possible for one person to awaken another person’s kundalini by looking at them.

The miscommunication only exists due to the relative/dualistic nature of language. Even Jan said how he can see people's subtle bodies and untie the knots in their Sushmana Naadi, thereby awakening Kundalini Shakti to rise. These are ways of talking about spiritual purification, just like the term 'raising your level of consciousness'.

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

Lol. You’d have to be crazy for it to make any sense. 

Haha, true. That's why it's important to go beyond stage Yellow and realize the limits of conceptualization.

[legendary]

31 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

If two spiritual masters disagree then one of them is a fake guru who knows nothing at all. Basic logic...

Didn't we all agree on the limits of logic and rationality already?

I don't think highly Self-realized beings disagree about the fundamental nature of reality. But they might disagree about the relative aspects/facets and ways to get Enlightened. E.g.: Buddhist monks say nothing about Kundalini and insist on following the Eightfold path, but Kriya Yogis insist on Kundalini being the fastest path to Enlightenment. Neither of them is a fake guru.

As Leo said, spirituality is such a huge domain, that probably no one understands all of it well.

[Markus]

@legendary I used to be a student of Mr. Esmann for a bit in the past. In any case I disagree with him and Campbell. I do think there is a liberation, as karma is not infinite. Vast, yes, not infinite. Eventually, the karma down to the deepest fears, as well as individuation, is purged. And then there's no more craving. According to Theravada Buddhism at least, which I find in my experience to be very legitimate so far.

 

[Salvijus]

@legendary juat two different paths.

They don't disagree wih each other they just use different methods to reach enlightenmemt. There are different methods for different types of people.

Disagreement would mean if Bhuddhist would come and say chakras don't exist. But you won't find that kind of statement anywhere.

@Markus +1

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Salvijus

[legendary]

1 hour ago, Markus said:

I disagree with him and Campbell

So do I.

Tom talks about the Larger Consciousness System being a finite system, which fundamentally goes against Absolute Infinity.

Jan talks about seeing a Blue Being (Krishna) after reaching Sahaja Samadhi, and how Advaita Vedanta doesn't go all the way.

But there's value in giving their perspectives and teachings an unbiased review.

Edited March 7, 2019 by legendary

[Markus]

@legendary The fundamental trap is that what they (can't say for sure about Campbell because I'm not familiar with him) see as the path is a journey within mind, within the relative. Bliss, a being, all that can not be absolute. Whereas how I see it, the path to enlightenment is a journey within mind until mind gives way to what's beyond.

[Nahm]

@Salvijus Well help me out then, what do you know about karma? 

[Salvijus]

@Nahm a detailed answer would take hours of studying to understand. I read about lots and lots and there still so much confusion in there. This takes some serious attention. Like 10xLeo 2h video weekends of studying 

Short answer. It's your accumilated memory which is desciding everything about you. You're just a bundle of memory and impressions. I'm talking about ego, not pure consciousness here. So that ego will reincarnate again and again. Pure consciousness doesn't reincarnate but that memory is trapped and that memory is longing for ultimate dissolusion. That memory longs to cease to exist. How? By dissolving karma. When you do that. That's mahasamadhi, and that's when you leave your body and dissolve into nothing. Puff

That's Mukti, that's the ultimate goal in spirituality. It comes after self realization. First self realization, then dissolving karma.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Salvijus