Infinite Not Knowing Finite

[Jonty]

I've spent a lot of time studying non-duality over the last few years from a variety of teachers, Leo included and have watched the Actualized videos over and over and gained a really good understanding of non-duality.

One thing puzzles me however and it relates to infinity. In Leo's video about Absolute Infinity he says that the meaning of infinite is "everything without exception." This makes complete sense to me and I understand this both logically and also have had brief insights which seem to confirm this in my own experience.

However, over the course of the last month I have read (based on Leo's recommendation) a book by Rupert Spira. This has led me to watch some his videos on Youtube. I have heard him say over and over again that the infinite can never know the finite and vice versa. I can see that my finite mind can never truly understand infinity, however, surely infinite consciousness can understand finite things due to the very fact that it is infinite and therefore contains and understands everything without exception.

@Leo Gura I know that this is without doubt a misunderstanding on my part, but I wondered if you might be able to find the time to clarify it? If there is anyone else out there who might be able to shed some light on it, I would be truly grateful.

Thanks in advance

[Aakash]

@Jonty infinite doesn't know the finite in the way we understand the finite, i.e this is a chair, this is a mouse and keyboard. the infinite only knows itself as the only thing in reality that exist. 

your misunderstanding is: you mistake the word IS for UNDERSTANDING  

the infinite IS everything without any exceptions 

then your finite mind is creating the duality of understanding vs not understanding infinity and whether it can or can not. 

the answer is my first line of this reply

[Jonty]

@Aakash Thanks for taking the time to answer that. I'm going to have to take some time for that to sink in I think. I do understand (and have seen glimpses of) the fact that there is only one thing, infinite consciousness. You probably had this experience yourself when you seem to get it, have an insight and then all of a sudden, you're back to square one again and seem to know nothing!

Thanks anyway. I'm sure it will click with more contemplation etc.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jonty

[Jonty]

@Aakash In addition to what I just wrote actually, if infinity IS everything then surely as well as being everything there is or could possibly be, it IS also everything that is finite or by definition, it wouldn't be infinite.

Therefore, why is it not possible (as Rupert Spira says) for infinite consciousness not to know the finite mind? The finite mind itself is made up from and exits within infinite consciousness and is therefore a part of it.

Am I overthinking it? Sorry to have to ask again, but I really hope to gain some clarity on this.

[Aakash]

the infinite is not a perspective to take because its the only truth, we could say yes, that it is apart of it by definition of the word infinite. 

but the infinite does not know of a finite mind, it only knows of itself in truth. 

i.e there is no such thing as a finite mind, it is a distinction we are creating as a finite self

this is "my mind" that belongs to me, this is my "finite mind" then you are projecting onto the self that you have conceptualised for yourself "this must mean that the finite mind is also part of the infinite mind, i know this, therefore the infinite must know this too" 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Aakash

[Jonty]

@Aakash Gotcha! That simple!  Thanks. I owe you one!

[cetus]

@Jonty  If by "infinity" you mean the absolute you may want to look into what Nisargadatta has to say. Some quotes of his seem to point to this question. One for instance being:

"The absolute (para-brahman) has no knowlage of itself" 

When fall comes and leaves start falling off a tree does the tree have knowlage of this?  Infinity/the absolute could be the same. 

[SoonHei]

You start from the beginning. You simply admit to yourself that you exist. This is the truth. You do exist, don't you? So you say to yourself, "I exist. I know that for sure. I exist. I exist. That's all I know. I'm ignorant of everything else, but I do know that I exist because here I am."

And, as you keep saying this to yourself,

"I exist,”

you begin to put more space between

"I" and "exist." "I... exist."

Say that to yourselves: "I... exist, "I... exist."

If you're doing this correctly you'll soon find that “I” and "exist" are two separate words. In other words you'll come to the conclusion that you exist as I. You'll have to ask yourself, ponder, "Who is this I that exists? What is I?" You never answer. It will come to you of its own accord. When you sleep and you awaken you say, "I slept." When you dream you say, "I had a dream." And when you're awake, of course, you say, "I am awake." But that I is always there. You start to inquire within yourself, "What is this I that exists at all times? It exists when I'm asleep, when I'm awake, when I dream. Who is this I?" And now the inquiry starts. "Where does this I come from? From whence come the I?" You ask yourself. The answers are within yourself.

And you keep asking yourself over, and over, and over again, "From whence come the I? Where does the I come from?" Or, "Who am I?" And you wait a little while, and you repeat the same question, "Where does the I come from?" While you're doing that, you follow the I deep, deep within. You keep following the I. You go deeper and deeper into the I. "Where does this I come from? Who is this I?" Whatever answer comes to you is the wrong answer. Do not accept it but do not deny it. You simply put it aside. And you continue with the self-inquiry. "Who am I?" And you wait. And you ask again, "Who am I?" It is not a mantra. Where did the I come from? How did it get there? Who gave it birth? What is the source of the I? You continue to abide in the I.

As you continue this process someday something will happen. To some people it comes like an explosion within, where all your thoughts are wiped away. For you see, I is the first pronoun, and every thought that you have in the world is attached to the I. It is secondary. Think about that. Whatever you have to say about yourself has I in it. Everything in the world is about yourself. I am going to the movies. I am going bowling. I feel like crying. I feel terrible. I feel wonderful. I feel sick. I feel well. There's always an I, I, I. What is this I, and what is it all about? Everything is attached to the I. Subsequently, when the I is wiped out, everything else is wiped out and the troubles are over. All thoughts go with the I.

Now there's no answer to "Who am I?" When you get to the answer there will be emptiness, a void. You will be of the unborn. But it is not a void like you think. It is not emptiness like you think. For want of a better word you can call it godliness, nirvana, sat-chit-ananda, bliss consciousness, absolute reality. It doesn't matter what name you give it. You will become that, and there will be no explanation. You will just become that, and you will feel a profound peace that you have never felt before. You will feel a bliss that is unqualified. You will try to explain it to yourself and to your friends, but you cannot, for the finite cannot comprehend the infinite. There are no words.

That's the method you use, self-inquiry. You follow the I-thought to its source. How long does it take? It depends on yourself. How sincere you are, what else you're doing with your life. If you're using this like you do everything else... For instance, if you say, "Well today I'm going to practice the I thought, then I'm going to go to a movie, then I'm going to go bowling, then I'm going to watch TV, then tomorrow I'll do the same thing." Of course what's going to happen in a case like that? Very little, but if you put your energy into it, and you practice it every chance you get, and you put this first in your life, you will see amazing results, amazing results.

But you have to put it first in your life. Think right now, what is first in your life? Don't tell me but just think. What comes first in your life? Can you take it with you when you die? Don't you see by now that you live in a world of constant change? That the only thing permanent in life is change? All facts change. Only truth is real, and truth is non-personal. You have to find it for yourself. For the sincere devotee or student they will put this first in their life, and then you will start seeing results. But if you're still worrying and fearing something, and you think other duties come first, then you've got to work on yourself.

-- Robert Adams

[Aaron p]

This is out of my depth but I like the analogy of the infinite mirror reflection

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Jonty said:

I have heard him say over and over again that the infinite can never know the finite and vice versa.

I'm not sure what this means.

The finite can know the infinite. And the infinite can know the finite. The infinite is not other than the finite.

You have to understand spiritual phrasing in their proper contexts.

What Spria might be talking about is the the Absolute formless Godhead which you can think of as sort of disconnected from the formed realm. You could say that it does not know the finite formed realm. But at the same it is also identical with the finite formed realm.

In this context, you have to understand that the word "know" is virtually identical with "be". We are not talking about linguistic knowledge. We are talking about being.

But all of this talk will only confuse you more. You must let all this go and just do the practices. Take a psychedelic to easily see what Spira is pointing to.

[Nahm]

@Jonty Empty / let go of your current understanding, so another can arise. The two are ten fold to one, or the other.