How do you know the truth is the truth?

[aespinosa]

According to Leo, when you are enlightened you are sure that what you experienced as the truth is the actual truth. I disagree, even after he explained why in a video (minute 36:30). Each time I hear about this topic, a lot of questions arises to me, mainly:

- How do you distinguish between someone that is delusional and someone that knows the truth? Leo says that his knowledge of truth is beyond experience, but how do we know other people are not experiencing the same with a different "truth"? Maybe it's just another level of delusion in which he thinks it's beyond experience but it's not.

- If two persons are certain that they know the truth, how can you know who is right? The one that has done more work? How do you know which is the right path/work? Because you have passed through the other person's stages? How do you know that it means that the stage was experienced in the same way by both of you? I'm just writing the problems I see right now to "knowing the truth", but there's a lot more.

[Salvijus]

That's a good question.

"World is not the way you think. World becomes exacly the way you think." Mooji.

To know the truth you have to experience the world without thinking. Without a slightest distortion in your mind. Because if you like something you'll exaggerate, if you dislike something, you'll downgrade it. There're lifetimes of memory that is distorting your experience. 

Sadhguru says if you experience the world without any distortions you'll see everything upside down because that's how your eye captures the sight. It's a scientific fact that eyes capture the sight upside down and then our brains turn it around. So there're enormous levels of distortions in what we experience. There're also ways to  eliminate all the distortions in our mind and experience the world and experience the world exacly the way it is. Not the way we think it is.

I think it's fare to say that you know the truth at this point

Edit: I remember en example where we were arguing what we see in a picture. There was a picture of Jesus and my mom sayed wow. What a sad eyes. I thought what? He's totally loving here and joyful then we went on arguing. Then the other day I look at the same picture and think but wait a min now he doesn't look the same way like yesterday. Now he looks more sad. And everyday you he looks different I have his picture at home. It's really fun to see how we project our feelings on the world i bet if 100people looked at the same picture they'd see 100different pictures

Edited February 22, 2019 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

@aespinosa Western philosophy has been trying to solve the problem of truth for over 2000 years. And they still haven't got it.

You must appreciate how deep this problem goes.

Nevertheless, Absolute Truth exists and it can be directly comprehended. But not in the way you're trying to do. Not by sitting there and theorizing about it. Truth is precisely not theory.

[SerpaeTetra]

Many different people all over the world and in many different time periods have experienced basically the same thing.  It seems how people interpret that same experience differs somewhat and Leo is simply expressing his particular views.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, aespinosa said:

According to Leo, when you are enlightened you are sure that what you experienced as the truth is the actual truth.

Also nondual experience is not the Absolute truth. It's closer to truth but not the absolute. Even in nondual experiences there're many layers of distortions.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Salvijus

[Joseph Maynor]

I'm not a fan of using "truth" at all in Enlightenment theory.  For me "being" is better than "truth" because it doesn't carry the baggage that "truth" does.  But that's just me.  I make room for other people to have differing proclivities regarding Enlightenment theory.  To me clinging to "truth" is also a potential trap because it's the Ego-Mind that wants the one right "truth" about everything; it's frikin' insatiable.  And then I get to run around telling everybody I have the one right "truth" like I'm some kind of super genius Ego-Mind among all the other Ego-Minds out there.  That's a little dodgy and pretty obviously in error from my perspective regarding what the Path is all about, which is getting away from clinging to for lack of a better word at the moment, the "unenlightened Ego-Mind".

Edited February 22, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Shadowraix]

All delusions contain some kind of truth. The problem here is trying to figure out truth is via thought.

You are truth in of itself. This immediately comes before thought as it resides in the layer of pure being, pure existence itself.

This is why it can't ever be fully encompassed by thought.

[How to be wise]

1 hour ago, aespinosa said:

when you are enlightened you are sure that what you experienced as the truth is the actual truth. 

That’s not my experience. I have a permanent awareness that nothing exists ‘behind my back,’ so to speak. If I’m not seeing it right now, it’s not real. 

But sometimes, my mind starts wondering whether that is really true. And in those moments, I think about the amount of confidence and certainty that enlightened teachers have, and in that moment, all doubts cease. 

It’s amazing how those enlightened teachers are just so sure of it. I guess doubting comes when you have a partial enlightened view. 

[who chit]

 

Quote

How do you know the truth is the truth?

It's unmistakable and can't be taken to be anything else. Those that come to realize it all come to the same unmistakable, undeniability of it's reality.
Enlightened teachers and non teachers are so sure of it,(whatever one decides to call it),because there is absolutely no way it's reality can be denied, 
One should be a bit skeptical of what they're saying but also not brush it off as mystical or imaginative nonsense. Thousands of years and multitudes of those who have come to the realization of it can't be wrong. The truthfulness of it's existence/reality is the foundation of nearly all religions. The newest vid from Leo on the Aztecs,which I hadn't known before ,realized the same truth. That this Truth (or whatever you want to call it) is one truth (not many truth's or "shades" of truth),and it is the same one truth for all those who realize it. That's where the certainty comes from. And if they say you can come to this same realization, then that must also be true.

Then you yourself can say "hm, they weren't bullshitting afterall" .

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by who chit

[tedens]

@aespinosa

2 hours ago, aespinosa said:

- If two persons are certain that they know the truth, how can you know who is right? The one that has done more work? How do you know which is the right path/work? Because you have passed through the other person's stages? How do you know that it means that the stage was experienced in the same way by both of you? I'm just writing the problems I see right now to "knowing the truth", but there's a lot more.

Each path is different because everyone has a dualistic mind, which boils down to having to experience direct experience.

[Anton Rogachevski]

It may very well be the case, and that's why you should always stay open to the possibility of there being a deeper insight. The masters of this are the most humble.

[Shin]

3 hours ago, aespinosa said:

According to Leo, when you are enlightened you are sure that what you experienced as the truth is the actual truth. I disagree, even after he explained why in a video (minute 36:30). Each time I hear about this topic, a lot of questions arises to me, mainly:

- How do you distinguish between someone that is delusional and someone that knows the truth? Leo says that his knowledge of truth is beyond experience, but how do we know other people are not experiencing the same with a different "truth"? Maybe it's just another level of delusion in which he thinks it's beyond experience but it's not.

- If two persons are certain that they know the truth, how can you know who is right? The one that has done more work? How do you know which is the right path/work? Because you have passed through the other person's stages? How do you know that it means that the stage was experienced in the same way by both of you? I'm just writing the problems I see right now to "knowing the truth", but there's a lot more.

 

You don't need to know if someone else is genuine or not.

Find the truth for yourself, that's the only thing that matter.

 

[Azrael]

3 hours ago, aespinosa said:

According to Leo, when you are enlightened you are sure that what you experienced as the truth is the actual truth. I disagree, even after he explained why in a video (minute 36:30).

@Leo Gura is right here. You know for sure.

3 hours ago, aespinosa said:

How do you distinguish between someone that is delusional and someone that knows the truth?

It's really hard. You certainly cannot necessarily distinguish a delusional and truthful person simply by their teachings. If you are enlightened yourself, you can tell the two apart. If you are not, you cannot because you don't know what to look for.

3 hours ago, aespinosa said:

If two persons are certain that they know the truth, how can you know who is right? The one that has done more work?

No, you cannot know when you yourself are not enlightened. Also, it doesn't matter what they say. There is value to each teaching, so no one is wrong. It just depends really what you personally like, at which stage you are and how your ego operates.

Two enlightened people could say shit about enlightenment and they would still be enlightened. Get that.

Btw, good questions.

[Vingger]

Inquiry: What happens if i am deeply wrong?

realize that the key is the deepness

[Highest]

You become Conscious of God which you are, you become CONSCIOUS that this is simply the case or the Truth. Even deeper than that, much deeper.

[tsuki]

@aespinosa Truth is not an object of knowledge.
The closest you can get with the mind is not-knowing, which is the gateway to being (truth).

Edited February 22, 2019 by tsuki