I want to believe.

[cetus]

@Paul92 It doesn't matter if you believe in it or not. What matters is that it got you on your toes questioning everything.. And here we are.

[ajasatya]

2 hours ago, Paul92 said:

It breaks my heart that really I love life, but it isn't going to last.

Life is infinite. where did you come from? what is it like to wake up without having ever gone to sleep?

[Paul92]

@Highest I know it should be about enjoying the time we have. That's the thing, I love life so much that I do fear death. If someone told me that the universe will exist forever, then I could accept death. Because I'd feel I'd played a tiny part in the advancement of humankind and the universe. That would be a worthwhile purpose, in my eyes.

I do love life, the ups and the downs. Which is why I always felt relatively happy. I guess I never realised that the universe will collapse one day. I know you might think it is a long time away, but if something is absolutely guaranteed to happen, then hasn't it already happened? Any book maker would pay out on something that they'd discover to be guaranteed.

 

@TheAvatarState I didn't mean something to live for being 'her' exactly. I meant that life is great, especially when shared with people you love. I'm not saying she gives me meaning. But she makes me realise that life can really be fun. Which, again, is why I am crushed because I'd hate for this to end.

[Markus]

@Paul92 Hey Paul. It's understandable you wouldn't believe in something you haven't experienced. Especially since it's very "out there". And I don't think you should force it. Especially stuff like believing everything is light and love. That is actually a stupid thing to believe, it's just an escapist comfort-seeking belief spiritual people use because they're afraid. Existential fear is very normal. We all harbour it, the difference is how well we're ignoring it, pretending it isn't there. When it comes to the surface, that isn't really an option.

It doesn't sound like you've had it easy. I'm happy for you about the girl. Love and appreciation of another is a beautiful thing. The issue is that for basically everyone, these genuine feelings are entangled with fearful attachment. In a heart breaking way, the more attached we are to what we adore, the more pain we'll have in our lives. We're also more likely to mess things up, so all this desperation and attachment for the sake of assuring things go our way and end up well is counterproductive. 

The only true fix for existential issues is the path. Comforting beliefs and reassurance can only serve as temporary fixes, which may in some cases be necessary but will always fall short.

 

 

[Paul92]

@Markus  Thanks for that. What you say does make sense, to an extent.

The more we love something the more suffering you can experience. I get that. But I don't see it as a bad heartbreak. If you are with someone all your life, you love them unconditionally, and they pass, then sure it is gutting that they have died, but you still have your memories. And grieving their passing is still a beautiful thing, in my eyes. Grieving is a beautiful thing, can't anyone see that?

I know we will have ups and downs but there's always that possibility of underlying love that will remain constant. I know elderly couples who have been together since their teenage years. It's beautiful.

What upsets me is just the fact that it looks likely - as science predicts today - that those beautiful stories and memories won't live on with human kind forever.

What I'm saying is, if I knew this earth/universe was to last forever, I wouldn't care about dying one bit. And I'd probably never feel sad again, after everything I've been through. Because I could take comfort in the fact that in some way, we ALL live on.

[Markus]

@Paul92 I can understand that. But there's nothing to indicate or give reassurance that the universe or earth would last forever. Every phenomenon, every experience, every person is impermanent. Everybody is going to end up losing everything they have, get sick, and die. Life is suffering, as the Buddha put it. Not necessarily agonising suffering (though that can happen too) but at the very least a constant dissatisfaction. 

You're talking about lifelong relationships. They certainly exist, but keep in mind the majority are not like that. It seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are quite attached to idealized notions of a relationship. Which is quite dangerous and unhealthy in a way. You meet a girl, that's great, but if you get attached to ideas of everlasting love, especially so early on, you're putting yourself in a very fragile position, and reality can slap you hard. Not saying it will, but it very well could.

The good news is, it is possible to experience love without attachment, which is more pure and beautiful than anything. It's the attachment aspect that makes you suffer and fear the end of things. But loving genuinely without expectations takes quite a degree of enlightenment to be possible. Pursuing that, however tough it can be at times, seems more worthwhile to me than looking for reassurances to cling to.

Good luck.

[SgtPepper]

Nothing I say will change the mind. You have to go and experience what we're talking about man. It's gonna blow your mind to bits though.

[Pouya]

Why people try to convince others of ideas?

For me, ideas of non duality are ideas again. It misses the point of it.

@Paul92 Go live your life as you like it. Believe in everything you want to believe. Nobody is forcing you to accept something you cannot accept yet. Maybe later you'll come back try again and maybe you won't.

It's ok to believe. It's ok to not believe. No morality is needed for anything.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Pouya

[Aaron p]

On 2/21/2019 at 2:50 PM, Paul92 said:

 

@Paul92 what's happening Paul mate, I'm aaron from Northern Ireland. Right, so straight away I'm just gonna tell you that all of these thoughts and emotions are VERY very typical to be seen in someone who is just about to embark on their spiritual path. So don't be depressed, just allow yourself to BE and keep following your heart.

 

On 2/21/2019 at 2:50 PM, Paul92 said:

The thing is, regarding nonduality and the like, I really don't believe. Simply because I have not had any experience of it. So again, bear with me, please. 

I really don't believe that everything is light and love. I don't buy into mediums and psychics. And I don't buy into a lot of the other things that come along with this sort of thing. 

Excellent excellent excellent. Do NOT change this. And definitely do NOT believe in nonduality or spirituality. Belief leads to false revelations, and insights of the imagination... Imitations of the truth, instead of the truth itself. Don't reject any conceptualisations of nonduality, just don't believe them...see that whatever you imagine about god, isint actually god...it's your imagination. You will see certain truths when *God* chooses for you to see them. And not before then. It's very important that you neither believe or disbelieve anything. In other words, don't take any step in any direction. The only thing that matters are the practices, get familiar with self enquiry, kryia yoga especially, be careful with phyc's as well...they are explosive. 

 

On 2/21/2019 at 2:50 PM, Paul92 said:

But one day I'll be dead. And so will she. One day, the universe will end again. Which means everything we might do together, any effect we have on the world, will be gone. So isn't everything pointless? It breaks my heart. Truly breaks my heart. I'm at work typing this and im having to hold back the tears. You might laugh at this, but it breaks my heart. 

Ohhhhhhh brother, this is FERTILE ground! Deeply philosophical mind, logical, analytical. Beware though, when using the mind to do philosophy, deep inner dissatisfaction arises (at least I find). I have an extremely deep mind, and I know that using it only brings more pain. Instead of eating more from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you should eat once from the tree of life and become alive. It's all about discovering who/what you are. When using consciousness to see the truth (which is itself, consciousness), God's love and joy and peace overflow out of your heart. You have to die like Jesus died though, the worst death. You must decend to the lowest parts of the earth, and die so that you can be born again of the great one...and become him. 

"When you close your eyes you see black, you are not the black, *you are the consciousness in which the black exists*." 

On 2/21/2019 at 2:50 PM, Paul92 said:

I'd give anything to be able to live forever in whatever form. I'd give anything to just spend eternity with this girl. 

You truly mean this? You'd give anything to be able to live forever? then give your SELF, begin the process of learning what you are by learning what you are NOT. self enquire and search. What part of the body is "you" the left pinkie fingernail? Is that part considered "you"? If it we're removed, would you still be here? Yes? Then you can exist without your pinkie nail, which means the pinkie nail isint you. What about more foundational things like your face...if the skin around your face and mouth was removed and replaced with a new face, would you still be here experiencing life directly? Can "you" exist without your face? Is it "you." 

What, when removed, causes *you* to be removed. Emotional sensations? Memory? What determines what you are? Is it your taste in music? If that was gone would you still be here experiencing life directly? Find the self, and you will find the gift of God, eternal life. The truth is, you are already an eternal God, it's not your choice...you already are. (Don't believe this though remember! *FIND* the truth by asking and answering simple self enquiry questions) 

On 2/21/2019 at 2:50 PM, Paul92 said:

It's controversial but I do think that consciousness is just chemistry. But I wish it wasn't. 

Ok, the concept of "chemistry" you have right now...is happening *within* your consciousness right nowwwww. The idea that it is not happening within your consciousness, is an idea that is also happening within your consciousness. You cannot escape this. The belief that consciousness does not exist, occurs within your consciousness. And the idea that other people have consciousness, is still just another idea... happening within *YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS*. 

[Hellspeed]

@Paul92 I was in a similar boat after a quit Christianity and became Atheist. But after a year or so it hit me so hard that i have awakened, and since then crazy shit has happened over the years. And sci-fi type of crazy shit that i can explain an prove  

So give it time, don't force the belief, go the contrary, is what i did, maybe it will sort out for you, who knows.  

[Paul92]

@Hellspeed Any examples, please?

 

@Aaron p  I'm sorry but I struggle to be convinced. I find your post very interesting and clearly you hold firm beliefs.

 

@Pouya  This is always my point. This all just another story we tell ourselves to try and deal with the harsh realities of being a human monkey. Humans always try and find away of making themselves the centre of the universe when in fact we are just as insignificant as any other animal in the grand scheme of things. If a baby was born in a forest, and somehow managed to grow into a small child without assistance from any others, it wouldn't go around believing it is the master of everything it sees. It would act like any other animal. It would try to protect itself. It would feel pain. And then if it came across friendly creatures, it would form bonds. 

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. I love this planet, I really do. I love everyone in my life. I just have to come terms with the fact it can't go on forever.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Paul92

[Highest]

There is nothing to believe or know. Just become conscious that you ARE already It. You don’t exist apart from it, you are It. If you want to believe you need direct non-dual experiences and awakenings. Do the consciousness work, but it can take years. Lsd, mushrooms, DMT can really help too, very much.

[mandyjw]

New relationships bring out intensely the same bliss that enlightenment can bring you, only because it's conditional and depends on the person being there and acting a certain way towards you, it has a powerful flip side when things go wrong. Enlightenment is a less intense form of the same feeling, only more prevalent. For example, that love attraction, seeing yourself, being your best self kind of high can come from something mundane like looking at the sky. 

You're stuck in future and the present moment is the key to lasting fulfillment and enlightenment. 

Check out Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now and try to stay away from too much theory right now. By being present you can enjoy this relationship without ruining it by clinging or ruining your own experience by having dark nihilistic thoughts about the future. 

Stay present.

There's only ever this moment.

Focus on the good, beautiful things that can ONLY be enjoyed in the moment and know that they soon lose their beauty as soon as you feel the need to lock them in to having them stick around in the future.  

 

 

[JohnnyBravo]

@Paul92

I respect and honour your honesty. No need to pressure yourself to believe things that just arent sticking. Youre better off being honest with yourself rather than cheating a belief system.

I argue you arent required to understand these things or 'get' them in order to have a happy ride in life!

 

Osho has advocated to people that for someone who doesnt believe in the Magic of Life that there is only one remedy: utterly go and fall in love. I know you said you dont believe esoteric stuff, but Osho has a theory that if a person is too much of a living walking calculator, and someone stubborn, that Life will send them a woman his way purely for the purpose of falling in love. Sounds like things are going well.

 

I would point out, you said you had a great date, but already youre thinking of the element of lack/fragility/missing out future opportunities or the enjoyment of them.

Enjoy them! Bask in the good feeling! Let yourself be high on the emotional swing for ages! 

I think youre keeping yourself safe and within safety zones of your psyche that prevents you fully enjoying yourself without feeling guilty.

I want to hear more of you....You sound very mature and very aware of how your mind can work in certain ways.

How would you feel if you sincerly did believed in the Beauty of Life? Hypthetically?.....

Or please let me know ive misunderstood. Sincerely wish to help even though this is an online forum and connection is (seemingly) diminished.

[Paul92]

On 3/1/2019 at 4:14 PM, JohnnyBravo said:

@Paul92

I respect and honour your honesty. No need to pressure yourself to believe things that just arent sticking. Youre better off being honest with yourself rather than cheating a belief system.

I argue you arent required to understand these things or 'get' them in order to have a happy ride in life!

 

Osho has advocated to people that for someone who doesnt believe in the Magic of Life that there is only one remedy: utterly go and fall in love. I know you said you dont believe esoteric stuff, but Osho has a theory that if a person is too much of a living walking calculator, and someone stubborn, that Life will send them a woman his way purely for the purpose of falling in love. Sounds like things are going well.

 

I would point out, you said you had a great date, but already youre thinking of the element of lack/fragility/missing out future opportunities or the enjoyment of them.

Enjoy them! Bask in the good feeling! Let yourself be high on the emotional swing for ages! 

I think youre keeping yourself safe and within safety zones of your psyche that prevents you fully enjoying yourself without feeling guilty.

I want to hear more of you....You sound very mature and very aware of how your mind can work in certain ways.

How would you feel if you sincerly did believed in the Beauty of Life? Hypthetically?.....

Or please let me know ive misunderstood. Sincerely wish to help even though this is an online forum and connection is (seemingly) diminished.

 

I have to admit that I really don't believe in esoteric things. I just haven't experienced it, so I can't believe.

I know that I have been diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder and OCD, which I know is also controversial here as many don't believe in such things. I HAVE experienced having those issues though, which are things that seem to align with materialism. Again, I might be wrong.

I have posted before that before I had a depressive incident before Christmas and came across the Power of Now, I lived quite a happy life. I felt I had purpose. I woke up pretty much every day with excitement. I never considered existential issues. I knew one day I would die, but I was happy to play my part in the advancement of civilisation. I'm a humble guy and I love the small things in life: good company, enjoying music etc. As I've gotten older, I became more content with just being alive and being around people that make me laugh.

I do believe in the beauty of life! That is my point Life IS wonderful. Look at this planet. People are wonderful. Loving a woman is beautiful. I think even grieving a passed loved one is a beautiful process. I know it is attachment, but I have a real attachment to life. This girl too... to paraphrase Forrest Gump, I'm not a smart man but I know what love is. We've had some great times already.

I just find it heartbreaking that the current prediction is that the universe will end one day. And all of us will cease to exist. Isn't that horrible? All our memories will vanish and not be experienced by anything or anyone.

If someone told me the universe would just expand forever, and it would be up to the human race to try and survive, then I believe we could do it and I would not fear death. Because I know in some way, through documentation, memories and stories, we would ALL live on some way and we would all be playing our part in our survival. To me, THAT is a beautiful thing. I don't see the beauty in forcing myself to be attached to anything, and just sitting around doing nothing.

 

[Paul92]

@mandyjw I'd agree that often the most wonderful things are the most mundane. Here in England today, it's rained all day. I spent quite a bit of time just sitting watching it come down and listening to it. I love that. Again, it breaks my heart that we all won't be around forever to experience something so great.

[Dumb Enlightened]

On 21/02/2019 at 11:50 AM, Paul92 said:

Firstly, please forgive me, I know I've been a pain in the ass on this forum before. The things I've said have often come from within a confused and scared state. 

The thing is, regarding nonduality and the like, I really don't believe. Simply because I have not had any experience of it. So again, bear with me, please. 

I really don't believe that everything is light and love. I don't buy into mediums and psychics. And I don't buy into a lot of the other things that come along with this sort of thing. 

But I wish it was all true, and I'll explain why. 

I love/loved life. I love the earth. I love animals. I love looking at stars. I love the universe. I don't want my experience to end. 

I've recently met a girl. And we've been dating and I think we're already falling in love. I don't even know how this all came about. I stopped looking for love years ago, and then just as I started exploring this stuff, here she came. And she's wonderful. Last night we went our, and it was truly one of the most amazing nights of my life. I never wanted it to end. She's wonderful. 

But one day I'll be dead. And so will she. One day, the universe will end again. Which means everything we might do together, any effect we have on the world, will be gone. So isn't everything pointless? It breaks my heart. Truly breaks my heart. I'm at work typing this and im having to hold back the tears. You might laugh at this, but it breaks my heart. 

People might say, "well you're only 26, you've got a lifetime to live! Enjoy your time here". But I haven't got a long time. Time, as we know it on earth, move so quick. Everything you look forward to, comes and goes. Like last night for me. I was so excited for the date, and I loved the experience, but now it's over. Which is fine, things have to end, I get that. I have the memory of it which is great. And there's the prospect of many other great nights. But it can't go on forever. Before you know it, you're 80 years old, basically waiting to die. Or are you already dead? 

It's controversial but I do think that consciousness is just chemistry. But I wish it wasn't. 

I'd give anything to be able to live forever in whatever form. I'd give anything to just spend eternity with this girl. 

Give me reasons why everything isn't pointless if I'm basically already dead.. 

the question would be, who thinks it is pointless ? Who wants it to last forever ?

Edited March 3, 2019 by Dumb Enlightened