What made the “legends of enlightenment” different?

[kieranperez]

This is a post I was a bit wary of posting because I see a lot of potential for delusion and fantasy from users who conceptual and cosmologize and mythologize these sorts of subjects but here it goes...

I’ve really wondered for awhile now... what exactly made these people such as Gautam Buddha, Christ, Mahavira, etc. different? Why are these people remembered hundreds and thousands of years later? What was it they did that really made such an impact on the human psyche, heart, and spirit? Is it something so fundamental that it comes down to one thing? I can definitely buy spiritual giftedness and good karma. There are certainly degrees of mastery. For instance, Kawhi Leonard is a super star caliber player in the NBA but he isn’t MJ. Is it moral mastery relative to the time and culture they were living in? Was it really the capacity for unconditional love? Was it the teachings, technology/practice/system they provided? Was it superb paranormal psychic giftedness alongside their deep wisdom?

I mean, Martin Ball or say veteran Zen masters are perfectly aware of God, is seemingly grounded in the ever present unconditionally loving nature that is God and is aware of that as his nature... in yet... In yet of course they don’t have the same impact as many others who are aware of the very same thing that he talks about. Mind you, I’m not saying they should. I’m not playing a comparison game here like a great basketball player might mistakingly keep comparing himself to Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain and deluxe himself into thinking he has to be like them. I’m just making a contrast to ask the question of makes these people different.

Certainly there seems to be a difference in luck, talent, and maybe karma/past lives which explains as to why certain like Ramana Maharshi or Sadhguru get this stuff (at least initially to be fair... the “first” enlightenment) overnight without much work. Which of course is very similar to sports where in say a sport like running which is a pretty relatively low skill and high talent based sport can hop into it totally new and without much work be running 4:25 in the mile as a 14/15 year old as a result of having an efficient lactate threshold, great vo2 capacity, big heart (physiologically speaking), etc.

Yeah I just want to get some opinions on this. 

[Leo Gura]

Contemplate how many thousands of people even greater than Jesus, Buddha, and Mahavira lived and died, but you never knew about them due to lack of marketing.

The things you know about you only know about for one reason: someone marketed the shit out of them. Not because they are the best.

What made them different was that they were genetically predisposed to it. They are freaks of nature, like someone who is 7 ft tall. Good luck beating him at basketball. Mental capacities are correlated to the brain. You are never going to get a donkey to understand trigonometry.

And now, for those of you who are eager to turn what I said into a victim mindset about how you can't achieve enlightenment. We'll that's nonsense. You can. You're just making excuses. It would be like arguing that you can't play basketball since you're not 7 ft tall. You don't need to be 7 ft tall to play basketball. Will you be the best basketball player in the world at 5ft tall? No. But being the the best in the world is an ego trip. Let it go. Just be the best that YOU can be.

Don't try to be Sadhguru or Buddha or Christ. Be you.

[tecladocasio]

Enlightenment has nothing to do with genetics ... 

[tecladocasio]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Mental capacities are correlated to the brain

@Leo Gura I thought brains do not exists .

[Joseph Maynor]

Think about the kind of person that is generally respected by others for being a good person.  What is it that separates that kind of person from other people?  What is that person doing, what is that person saying, what is that person thinking, how is that person living?

Edited February 21, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[who chit]

Siddhis or spiritual gifts. 
If one engages in serious spiritual practice (sadhana),certain attainments will be had. They are unavoidable. They  naturally unfold as a consequence of spiritual evolution.But to the degree they manifest will vary. Some will gain more rare,extraordinary abilities than others, but overall, anyone who is committed and engaged in such practices will "attain" some degree of siddhi.  The problem lies in their ability to 'sidetrack" or distract one from the ultimate goal of liberation, as they are a manifestation of That, and not That itself. Falling into the trap of certain attainments is still living in the illusion as they are a part of the illusion and are only "useful" in the illusion. If one takes them for what they are, interesting phenomena along the way, and not get caught up(attached) to them, one will reach the goal. Also, those "legends" are still taken or looked upon as persons with abilities, when the abilities are a manifestation of God, Consciousness etc., working through them. They, and the abilities, not as important as that which is working through them. 

[who chit]

Sadhguru speaking about sidhhi.
 

 

[MM1988]

2 hours ago, tecladocasio said:

@Leo Gura I thought brains do not exists .

Not in a physical or metaphysical sense. But as an illusion they do.

[Salvijus]

I think marketing plays a big role. And just that the influence that these beings had on raising human consciousness is far bigger maybe.

As for being enlightened without much work. It's not true. They did their share of work in their past lives. For example sadhguru was already totally enlightened in his past live and he had to do hardcore sadhana like everyday else, even more then everybody else actually. Now naturally in this lifetime he was born enlightened, he didn't have to do anything for that matter just to wait for the right maturity and balance for enlightenment to blossom. because if it would've happened too soon, the branches could not hold the fruit, branches would brake because fruit is too big.(that's what sadhguru says) that's why he waited for 25years to prepare for the landing. Otherwise a normal person would just drop dead in a moment like this.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Salvijus

[Joseph Maynor]

3 hours ago, MM1988 said:

Not in a physical or metaphysical sense. But as an illusion they do.

Look at how you guys rationalize stuff.  It's like telling one lie forcing you to tell 3 more lies to cover up that first lie.  Honestly, is reality forcing you to make these Metaphysical distinctions?  Nothing changes if your Metaphysics goes away.  Notice that.  Nothing changes.  All that changes are the beliefs that your Ego-Mind is clinging to.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, tecladocasio said:

Enlightenment has nothing to do with genetics ... 

How much consciousness one can muster definitely depends on genetics and physiology.

The Absolute is of course prior to genetics. But this means jack if your brain is fucked up.

This is simply not recognized by most spiritual traditons because they are 1000 years older than genetics or neuroscience.

If your brain is filled with lead and mercury, good luck getting enlightened. You'll have ADD so bad you will barely be able to read a book.

The deep problem here is that genetically gifted spiritual people take their own abilities totally for granted, as if everyone has them. No they don't.

[Tetcher]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How much consciousness one can muster definitely depends on genetics and physiology.

The Absolute is of course prior to genetics. But this means jack if your brain is fucked up.

I saw you give some credibility to past lives rememberance, note that if one can remember past lives this mean there is an immaterial framework underlying the physical body from which the brain can download those memories. By working on that framework with yoga and other spiritual practices one may carry his work through lifetimes. Hence the saying that enlightenement may take lifetimes and that genetics are not the main factor in this work.

[Leo Gura]

@Tetcher To me there is little difference between genetics and past lives.

Genetics is just universal memory.

The genetics of a donkey do not allow it to have sufficient consciousness to learn mathematics.

Humans brains have enormous variety. We do not all have one type of brain. Each brain has unique pros and cons. Some are good at linear thinking, others at meditation, others at emotions, others at art, others a language, others at psychic powers, etc.

No one brain does it all equally well. There are real tradeoffs.

[tedens]

Humans mind is limited and can't correctly adopt and transfer to others 'knowledge' attained from the Source.

Here ramain words like awesome, amazing, wonderful and magic.

Edited February 21, 2019 by tedens

[Rinne]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How much consciousness one can muster definitely depends on genetics and physiology.

The Absolute is of course prior to genetics. But this means jack if your brain is fucked up.

This is simply not recognized by most spiritual traditons because they are 1000 years older than genetics or neuroscience.

If your brain is filled with lead and mercury, good luck getting enlightened. You'll have ADD so bad you will barely be able to read a book.

The deep problem here is that genetically gifted spiritual people take their own abilities totally for granted, as if everyone has them. No they don't.

Could a concentration practice solve a ADD problem? Or would one need to do brain training etc?

[Tetcher]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Tetcher To me there is little difference between genetics and past lives.

Genetics is just universal memory.

The genetics of a donkey do not allow it to have sufficient consciousness to learn mathematics.

Humans brains have enormous variety. We do not all have one type of brain. Each brain has unique pros and cons. Some are good at linear thinking, others at meditation, others at emotions, others at art, others a language, others at psychic powers, etc.

No one brain does it all equally well. There are real tradeoffs.

You are not taking into account the physicality of genetics. Even if you have kids your point of view remains centered in Leo and when you die you leave the body, if you keep awareness  your point of view remains but not genetics. The enlightened people then say that this point of view choses a womb according to it's tendencies and depending on the womb it will receive a body with certain genetics, therefore it's detached.

So the physical memory like genetics is one thing but evidence suggests that there is an immaterial framework that can attach or detach from physicality. We can call it soul for common vocabulary.

The point is the soul needs to get enlightened. With enlightened soul you could chose consciously the womb to be born in and be conscious during the foetal developpment.

Now can a sick body  allow the enlightenment of the soul, apparently this human mechanism is the peak of evolution because it allows enlightenment to happen, so  we can say that sickness could impair it. But is there a set of genetics that will make you reach enlightenment faster and easier ? Some sets can remove more difficulties but in the end the soul has to make it, no matter how good the genetics.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Tetcher

[Salvijus]

Interesting.

I was just reading something that sadhguru sayed that there're karmic bondages, certain barriers that do not allow one to go beyond a certain point. simply you'll be blocked from reaching certain states unless you dissolve that karma.

I don't think genetics play a big role. Maybe a little. But there are forces beyond our petty understanding that play much bigger role in this 

@Tetcher makes some interesting points.

[AlwaysBeNice]

It may have some truth, predispositions.

But God can EASILY, and willingly, completely step up your game. 

[kieranperez]

3 hours ago, Rinne said:

Could a concentration practice solve a ADD problem? Or would one need to do brain training etc?

It’s not that simple. Speaking as someone who has ADHD.

Research behind ADHD is very behind but neurofeedback seems to me to be a legit solution. I’ve heard about neurofeedback more and more over the years since I was like in the 2nd grade (and I’m 23 now). This isn’t a new fad. 

However diet also matters. Media addictions also come into play. 

Definitely don’t give up on concentration practice though. What I’ve found with concentration is that a lot of concentration comes with “stopping self activity”. Try still gazing without blinking at a candle flame for 5 minutes. In the past I used to try to concentrate more through this exerted effort that just caused a more flustered mind. Try instead just to be with the candle and notice the more you can just be with the flame and simply keep your gaze on the candle and continue to relax this mode of self, the more room you have to concentrate. Turning down self turns up consciousness. Try that as an experiment for a bit. 

2 hours ago, Tetcher said:

You are not taking into account the physicality of genetics. Even if you have kids your point of view remains centered in Leo and when you die you leave the body, if you keep awareness  your point of view remains but not genetics. The enlightened people then say that this point of view choses a womb according to it's tendencies and depending on the womb it will receive a body with certain genetics, therefore it's detached.

So the physical memory like genetics is one thing but evidence suggests that there is an immaterial framework that can attach or detach from physicality. We can call it soul for common vocabulary.

The point is the soul needs to get enlightened. With enlightened soul you could chose consciously the womb to be born in and be conscious during the foetal developpment.

Now can a sick body  allow the enlightenment of the soul, apparently this human mechanism is the peak of evolution because it allows enlightenment to happen, so  we can say that sickness could impair it. But is there a set of genetics that will make you reach enlightenment faster and easier ? Some sets can remove more difficulties but in the end the soul has to make it, no matter how good the genetics.

 

This is funny because I’m reading Sadhguru’s biography and this was pretty much his case from past lives of of intense sadhana. It’s pretty hairy when you throw in things like karma and previous life times of spiritual work. I definitely think this can have validity. In the end, I think you need to be an advanced and accomplished spiritual master to be able to subjectively confirm this stuff. Accomplished beyond just realization of the many facets and depth of the Absolute but also when it comes to psychic energy stuff which for example someone like Sadhguru seems very adept in.

[tecladocasio]

12 hours ago, MM1988 said:

Not in a physical or metaphysical sense. But as an illusion they do.

@MM1988 that don't even make sense .