Bernie Sanders

[Forestluv]

32 minutes ago, Zizzero said:

@Serotoninluv I like your thoughts. Even though you strawman-ed me with what my concerns are 

My question would be this:
-Why is raising the collective level of the spiral desirable/valuable? - why does yellow have this goal?

I did my best trying to form analogies with your concerns - that's why I wrote "seems to suggest".

Your second question is a very good existential question. When a mind-body is yellow-centered there is understanding of relativism. Both moral relativism as well as deeper, broader relativism. Yet, yellow still lacks a full understanding / direct experience of the absolute/nonduality and has not yet begun Turquoise-level integration of nonduality with duality. So, yellow understands their own perspective is relative and they see some value in all perspectives and all spiral stages - yet can see more value in some perspectives than others. Yellow loves to integrate perspectives to form holistic perspectives.

I find it difficult to answer in rational terms why raising the collective level is valuable. It's getting into post-rational tier 2 zones. The best I can do is to say that Tier 2 is not about self need desires. It's not about being right, looking good, winning arguments, getting my way etc.  It is about exploring and experiencing the magnificence of life. There is a genuine desire that others experience and share in this magnificence. As a personal example, a few months ago I was laying with a lover and my mind-body was experiencing deep love and connection. It wasn't about me or her. We melted away. It was direct experience with a deep love that I wasn't aware even existed. I layed there wishing that everyone in the world could experience this. It was an extremely strong desire and it had nothing to do with my personal wants or needs. It was so powerful it motivated me to explore how I might learn to channel this deep love to others. Why did this desire arise? I don't know. It's not something I can explain in rational terms. 

[Zizzero]

@Serotoninluv If I understand you correctly, you're saying something along the lines of: Yellow wants to raise the level because yellow realizes the advantages of being in the second tier. Believe it or not, I actually agree with you on that. But with that, you also agree with me that there is nothing intrinsically valuable about it, though.

Our disagreement might just be the following: I don't think a perspective gains validity from being higher up in the spiral. Turquoise lacks good reasons just as much as blue does; the only difference is how much more complex the world is that turquoise sees.

[kieranperez]

1 minute ago, Zizzero said:

Our disagreement might just be the following: I don't think a perspective gains validity from being higher up in the spiral. Turquoise lacks good reasons just as much as blue does; the only difference is how much more complex the world is that turquoise sees.

This is what I’m trying to point out to you: the higher you go in the spiral, the more all inclusive the perspective is. Hence: transcend and include. So as you go to Turquoise you’re worldview is more accurate because it includes more.  It can see more. Ethnocentric groups that we deem damaging now were actually necessary developments in the period in time when they were first conceived. However, the human psyche is evolving and human culture is becoming more interconnected, more complex, less tribalistic, etc. and these demand a more all inclusive point of view. Neo nazi groups have a truth to what their ideology, only partial. However, Green postmodernism does as well have a partial truth but that partial truth is more inclusive than Blue. Which is what our world is demanding now if we’re going to live in a more conscious and ever evolving world (the world and God is going to evolve regardless but that’s another rabbit hole).

[Zizzero]

5 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

This is what I’m trying to point out to you: the higher you go in the spiral, the more all inclusive the perspective is. Hence: transcend and include. So as you go to Turquoise you’re worldview is more accurate because it includes more.  It can see more. Ethnocentric groups that we deem damaging now were actually necessary developments in the period in time when they were first conceived. However, the human psyche is evolving and human culture is becoming more interconnected, more complex, less tribalistic, etc. and these demand a more all inclusive point of view. Neo nazi groups have a truth to what their ideology, only partial. However, Green postmodernism does as well have a partial truth but that partial truth is more inclusive than Blue. Which is what our world is demanding now if we’re going to live in a more conscious and ever evolving world (the world and God is going to evolve regardless but that’s another rabbit hole).

More inclusive does not equal superior.

Every stage in the spiral is designed to solve the problems of the previous stage. A normative claim by a turquoise person is not more true than a normative claim by a red person

[kieranperez]

16 minutes ago, Zizzero said:

More inclusive does not equal superior.

Every stage in the spiral is designed to solve the problems of the previous stage. A normative claim by a turquoise person is not more true than a normative claim by a red person

It’s not “superior”. Just more evolved. Just like if you were Turquoise and I were Purple, you wouldn’t be better than me but you would be more evolved than me in terms of your own development relative to my own. 

[Leo Gura]

Spiral stages are equal in the absolute sense but are inferior/superior in the relative sense.

Just like drinking pure spring water is relatively better for a human being than drinking water from a public toilet. But in the absolute sense, the toilet water is no worse than spring water.

The value of water is RELATIVE to the health of a human being. So it is important IF you care about human health. It is not important in the absolute sense.

When it comes to politics and issues of governance be careful not to adopt too much of an absolute perspective, since politics is a question of pragmatic solutions for issues of survival. Poliltics requires a pragmatic eye. What will actually improve peoples lives? What will put mankind in harmony with our environment? Taking an absolute stance on such questions is a mistake.

For example, naive people pursuing nonduality might wrongly conclude that after enlightenment voting no longer matters because they are now so above politics. So they stop voting. But then that action might lead to a facist getting elected and starting WWIII or outlawing spirituality. There cannot be a decent society without voting. Good luck getting enlightened in North Korea. It is not enough to just get enlightened, you must also help to create a society where other people can get enlightened like you did. It is not right to say, "Well, I'm enlightened now, so fuck ya'll." Because you would have never gotten enlightened if all enlightened people took that attitude. The path to your awakening was laid by millions of people working for thousands of years to create a society which would allow it. So it would be kind of you to return the favor.

Remember the important role that balance plays in earthly life. The point of politics is to get our collective balance right, so we don't fall into collective disease.

No one is above politics. Not as long as you care about living. By not voting, you've cast your vote for the status quo.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Zizzero said:

 If I understand you correctly, you're saying something along the lines of: Yellow wants to raise the level because yellow realizes the advantages of being in the second tier. 

There are different expressions of Yellow. I can see a yellow-level thinker phrasing it in terms of "advantages". It's just not my form of expression. The term has some underlying logic associated with it. For example, imagine having a genuine crush on a gal. It is a pure, genuine, innocent liking. You just want to be with her and do whatever, as long as you are together. On the way to her house, a desire arises within you to bring her her favorite ice cream, so you stop at the parlor to get a scoop to go. The motivation has nothing to do with "advantages". The person isn't thinking "If I get her some ice cream, she will think I am a thoughtful guy and that will give me an advantage over other guys and improve my chances to get in her pants". Tier 2 motivation is before all that. It is much closer to the source. Yet, I'm fusing in some Turquoise here and I can see how a pure Yellow-perspective could use a framework of advantages - it just wouldn't be for a personal advantage. It would be more along the lines of social engineering advantages.

1 hour ago, Zizzero said:

But with that, you also agree with me that there is nothing intrinsically valuable about it, though.

I would agree on the absolute level, since in the absolute relative value collapses. Yet this is a Tier2 level interpretation that nothing is intrinsically valuable. If someone in Tier1 was using that phrase in a relative context to gain leverage in their argument, I would disagree. I would use extreme caution when using the absolute in a relative sense, it can cause a lot of harm at the human level.

1 hour ago, Zizzero said:

I don't think a perspective gains validity from being higher up in the spiral. 

That statement would have very different meaning depending on whether it arose from an Orange or Yellow level. From an Orange perspective, that statement could be used to protect one's own perspective and neutralize higher evolved perspectives. Even Yellow can assign more value to certain perspectives. It's not until Turquoise until value/validity constructs collapse.

Again, be careful about using the absolute on the relative human level. This can cause a lot of confusion and harm. For example, in the absolute, there is no separate distinction from a wealthy dictator and the poor people he tortures. Yet should we throw our hands up and say "Well there is no value difference here. Let's just move along. . . " On the relative level, I would assign value and support actions that stop the mal-treatment of humans. At the absolute level, there is absolute love for both the dictator and those he tortures.

It's really important how one uses the statement "there is no value/validity difference" along the spiral.

1 hour ago, Zizzero said:

Turquoise lacks good reasons just as much as blue does; the only difference is how much more complex the world is that turquoise sees.

Turquoise ventures into nonverbal post-reason areas. It is three levels higher than logic/reason based Orange level thinking. Turquoise is incomprehensible to Orange. 

I would say Yellow is the big jump that sees much deeper and nuanced aspects of complexity. Turquoise has a much better understanding of distinctions. Turquoise can also allow distinctions to dissolve and can see deeper levels of simplicity and singularity.

Overall, you raise some great questions and thoughts. I've enjoyed the conversation. 

[Angelo John Gage]

I recently got followed by Tusli Gabbard on Twitter and followed her back, retweeting her and showing her support. I do a lot of what I call "meta-political" activism in which I don't support either "left or right" but what is just. Tulsi is a congresswoman from Hawaii who is also one of the first female combat veterans. Her biggest goals is stopping the Military Industrial Complex. I don't know much about her other policies; being that she is a democrat I probably wouldn't agree with many, but those to me are irrelevant because the MIC is the greatest threat to humanity; petty disagreements on social issues should not get in the way of stopping it.

One of the main reasons I actually voted for Trump, was not the wall or tax cuts, but because he said he would stop "dancing to the false song of globalism." Yet he then goes on to bomb Syria twice with fake intel of "gassings" and makes  a 400 billion dollar arms deal with the genocidal Saudis. Not to mention, his cucking to Israel (like most politicians) is also problematic and certainly is not "America first."

But I've come to the conclusion that no matter who we vote for (I won't be voting again), our society will collapse. Frankly, I look forward to it because I'm tired of all the lies and the politics that are so childish and pathetic; I can't even believe some our of "leaders" are even voted in. This just goes to show the stupidity of the masses; the level of corruption and chaos is directly a result of out complacently, degeneracy, and refusal to take responsibility for our own lives. 

But even Tulsi Gabbard who I think is saying the right stuff, will face a harsh reality if she is ever elected. The same would happen to Bernie or anyone else. To think the banksters, MIC, media moguls and criminals of the world would let her or anyone for that matter, interfere with their operations, without an actual revolution, is silly.

So we can sit here and debate who is going to be bad or good, but the reality is, until the true powers behind the scenes are taken out, we are just running in circles.

Luckily for those of  us who are prepared, Nature will ensure that every complacent and degenerate society will collapse. Check out this video below.

 

 

 

[Zizzero]

@kieranperez @Serotoninluv 

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Spiral stages are equal in the absolute sense but are inferior/superior in the relative sense.

Relative values (inferiority/superiority) require a premise of value. If you for example assess value to human survival, preventing WW3 is morally good within this context, but not absolutely good. But if you are an endangered species, and assess value to humanity's end, WW3 is a moraly good idea all of a sudden. I think we generally agree.

All I intended to argue for is to say that what matters to a turquoise or a green person might not matter to a blue person. Realizing green ideals in a society is good for anyone who cares about green values, but not to those who don't.

I believe the main disagreement throughout the thread is what the practical political steps are regarding spiral dynamics and our current society. I'm ok with us agreeing to disagree on this matter. Thanks guys for the interesting debate and sharing your thoughts, certainly enjoyed it as well.

[Angelo John Gage]

PS, I thought no political talk was allowed here? lol

[How to be wise]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But then that action might lead to a facist getting elected and starting WWIII or outlawing spirituality. There cannot be a decent society without voting. Good luck getting enlightened in North Korea. It is not enough to just get enlightened, you must also help to create a society where other people can get enlightened like you did. It is not right to say, "Well, I'm enlightened now, so fuck ya'll." Because you would have never gotten enlightened if all enlightened people took that attitude. The path to your awakening was laid by millions of people working for thousands of years to create a society which would allow it. So it would be kind of you to return the favor.

Materialist paradigm much? 

The world exists only as thoughts and beliefs; it is not real. So voting really does not matter. The future is an illusion; only beliefs and thoughts. Same with the past.

As for whether or not I vote, I really don’t bother with that. Doership is an illusion. Whether or not you vote will be decided by the body after you clear it of all its shadow/fears. It will think and move on its own.

[kieranperez]

Just now, How to be wise said:

Materialist paradigm much? 

The world exists only as thoughts and beliefs; it is not real. So voting really does not matter. The future is an illusion; only beliefs and thoughts. Same with the past.

As for whether or not I vote, I really don’t bother with that. Doership is an illusion. Whether or not you vote will be decided by the body after you clear it of all its shadow/fears. It will think and move on its own.

Zen devil

[How to be wise]

Just now, kieranperez said:

Zen devil

Explain.

[Forestluv]

31 minutes ago, Zizzero said:

@kieranperez @Serotoninluv 

Relative values (inferiority/superiority) require a premise of value. If you for example assess value to human survival, preventing WW3 is morally good within this context, but not absolutely good. But if you are an endangered species, and assess value to humanity's end, WW3 is a moraly good idea all of a sudden. I think we generally agree.

All I intended to argue for is to say that what matters to a turquoise or a green person might not matter to a blue person. Realizing green ideals in a society is good for anyone who cares about green values, but not to those who don't.

I believe the main disagreement throughout the thread is what the practical political steps are regarding spiral dynamics and our current society. I'm ok with us agreeing to disagree on this matter. Thanks guys for the interesting debate and sharing your thoughts, certainly enjoyed it as well.

Observe how you are using relativism/absolutism. You are using it at a Tier1 level and saying that each level is merely relative to that level. You then you add in absolutism by saying each relative level is equivalent. That is a misuse of relativism/absolutism. For example, Yellow cognition utilizes integrative and systemic thinking and is at a much higher level than Blue level binary thinking. Blue is limited to binary thinking while Yellow can utilize binary thinking AND rational, logical, integrative, relative and systemic thinking. To suggest they are on relative equal planes is nonsense.

Imagine an alcoholic that has lost his job and beats his wife and kids. The wife tells him "I think you have a drinking problem and are harming the family". The alcoholic responds "Well, that is just your relative perspective. My relative perspective is that I am a wonderful father and everything is fine. Both of our perspectives are relative and there is no value difference". That is a twisted and absurd use of relativism.

A key to relativism and absolutism is that they are trans-personal. This is an enormous jump in consciousness. You are using the concepts at a personal level to rationalize false equivalencies. It's a form of an Orange level "both sides do it" argument. 

23 minutes ago, Angelo John Gage said:

PS, I thought no political talk was allowed here? lol

It is allowed in the context of actualization, consciousness, Spiral Dynamics etc. It is not allowed in the context of propagandizing.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Materialist paradigm much? 

The world exists only as thoughts and beliefs; it is not real. So voting really does not matter. The future is an illusion; only beliefs and thoughts. Same with the past.

As for whether or not I vote, I really don’t bother with that. Doership is an illusion. Whether or not you vote will be decided by the body after you clear it of all its shadow/fears. It will think and move on its own.

Read what I wrote again. I was specifically talking about this very trap you just fell into. It's the trap of absolutism.

When all you have is hammer, everything looks like a nail. << That's you

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Materialist paradigm much? 

The world exists only as thoughts and beliefs; it is not real. So voting really does not matter. The future is an illusion; only beliefs and thoughts. Same with the past.

Be careful seeking refuge within nonduality. During initial immature stages of nonduality it's common to embrace nonduality and reject duality. Yet with more maturity, there is an integration between the nondual and dual.

This thread has a few newbies misusing the absolute level.

[lmfao]

Vote for Andrew Yang. He looks yellow as fuck to me. 

I'll just insert my 100% neutral opinion into the thread. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

@lmfao Again, you also have to be realistic. Does the person you're voting for really have a chance of winning? Will your donation go to waste?

Simple-mindedly voting for the highest stage candidate is not good enough. Because society might not be ready for stage Yellow yet, or because stage Yellow might not be the right counter-balance to stage Blue & Orange in the way that stage Green might be. You have to consider all these nuances. There are many stage Yellow people in the world who would not make for effective politicians or who might not introduce significant enough policy proposals. Dealing with the hardcore right in this country is not easy. You have to know how to drive a hard bargain. Meeting them half-way often doesn't work so well (as we saw with Obama). Sometimes a good battle is necessary to bring the losing position into collective awareness.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura You don’t get it. I’m not doing anything. I’m letting go of doing. After you see the world as an illusion, doing ceases. Decisions and actions are made spontaneously. I’m only following whatever arises to me. 

Remember that other people don’t exist. You said that elegantly in the beginning of the video. There’s nothing to do, so let go of doing and let the spontaneity take over. 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

After you see the world as an illusion, doing ceases. Decisions and actions are made spontaneously. I’m only following whatever arises to me.

And what's rising in you now is foolishness.

Let's see what tune you sing when someone takes a dump in your soup.