god before enlightenment

[OmniYoga]

so I'm wondering is learning about god not an obstacle, before self-experience it,
becasue you create  the idea of god in the mind, expectations and the meaning of it,  therefore  = some ego around it,
and why try to grasp something with language, if its beyond it,
seems like waste of time
the anology will be "the game" (male/female dynamics) you can mental mastubate about it with 10000 of hours,
but the only way to expierence and learn it is in the field, actually interacting (being, doing)

[Pouya]

@OmniYoga I think it can be a distraction for experiencing it but its better to have a vage idea whats on the other side to just run around thinking you have the Truth when you don't

[Forestluv]

I think some conceptual framework can be helpful. For example, what if a person had a spiritual experience yet had no idea of what it is and no idea that it's called anything. That person may dismiss the experience as just a weird thing - that it is "whoo whoo" and default back to their prior state of mind. Yet, with some conceptual understanding, the spiritual experience may be given different meaning. They person may think "So thats what the Rupert Spira was talking about!". 

With that said, intellectualizing can easily become a major distraction. Ime, not much conceptual understanding is necessary to support the direct experience. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Someone other than me made this point.  Wow.  The people who can't see this they just aren't ready to see it.  When you're trapped in Metaphysics, you think you have the truth.  You gotta go through that and come out the other side like a teenager exhausting a phase to see this, it's not something that can one can be persuaded of intellectually.  Most people are way too stubborn for that, since the Ego-Mind is so invested in its own beliefs.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[ajasatya]

@OmniYoga it can be a waste of time and mental energy or it can be a motivation for you to go and actually do the practices.

concepts are also great to shatter crystalized beliefs and the sense of moral obligation to believe in some set of beliefs, specially for people coming from limiting religious or scientific backgrounds.

you're much better off with a belief that you can let go easily than with a belief that you hold as true for sentimental reasons.

[Shin]

"Knowledge" is important to make sense of what you will experience, and not dismiss it for some mental state.

If you get some glimpses, that's not it.
If you get an awakening experience, that's not it.
If you get self-realized, that's still not it (only half way).

Most people will get stuck at the first two stages, and get arrogant as fuck.
The ones who get to stage 3, oh boy, they are even more arrogant ...

Edited February 19, 2019 by Shin

[OmniYoga]

@ajasatya  but still this is the same thing, creating more believes ... , only different kind

[OmniYoga]

@Serotoninluv

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

With that said, intellectualizing can easily become a major distraction.

you wanted to say Leo is major distraction.

[ajasatya]

1 hour ago, OmniYoga said:

@ajasatya  but still this is the same thing, creating more believes ... , only different kind

no you didn't understand. there are some sticky/gross beliefs and there are beliefs used to cleanse those sticky/gross ones. after the remotion of the first layer of beliefs, you can ditch the others. ramana maharshi used to say "thorns to remove thorns".

[Shin]

2 hours ago, OmniYoga said:

@ajasatya  but still this is the same thing, creating more believes ... , only different kind

Technically that's true.
Concepts about enlightenment are not there to believe in them though, they are here to guide you experientially in your path.

Unfortunately, until you free your mind of holding on to beliefs, which happens when you stop to identify to the mind (being the seer/watcher behind it), any beliefs whatsoever will be seen as an ultimate and pure truth to live by.

It is so extreme in religious circle that it becomes ridiculous from an outside perspective, but it's happening in every level of our lives.
It just happens that, since it is seen as "normal", we don't qualify it as neurotic, but it is.
The tendency of the mind to cling to a belief is equally proportional to the degree of consciousness of the body/mind you have.

You don't need to reject or cling to any beliefs whatsoever when you see you're not the mind, all beliefs are accepted as potential truths, which is very different than what the standard mind does.
At this point you won't care about believing something to be right or wrong, or to belong conceptually to a community, all those things collapse and are seen as a waste of time and energy.

The beliefs are stored as eventualities in your mind,
And if one interest you for some practical reason, you will do the empiric research yourself to confirm or disprove it.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Shin

[Aaron p]

6 hours ago, OmniYoga said:

so I'm wondering is learning about god not an obstacle, before self-experience it,
becasue you create  the idea of god in the mind, expectations and the meaning of it,  therefore  = some ego around it,
and why try to grasp something with language, if its beyond it,
seems like waste of time
the anology will be "the game" (male/female dynamics) you can mental mastubate about it with 10000 of hours,
but the only way to expierence and learn it is in the field, actually interacting (being, doing)

@OmniYoga once appropriately interpreted, Christianity and the Bible are some of the most powerful tools. Many lessons. God showed me many things from the Bible, but I'm only really tieing them all together now. I remember the first time he told me he was me ?

[Nahm]

@OmniYoga It doesn’t matter. When you meet it’ll all be wiped out, whatever it was. 

[Leo Gura]

@OmniYoga Yes it's a massive obstacle, second only to not learning about God

[Truth Addict]

@OmniYoga

If all the signs were pointing towards hell, where would I find heaven?

[OmniYoga]

@Truth Addict 

well that's not the case, becasue most of the known civilization and people in one way or onther pointing towards some god form, including this "movement" (actualized.org), which makes me even more sceptical and suspicious,

and the funny feature of the mind is whenever you put something into it and believe it, it became your god very, very quick without even realizing - (it might be science, self-help, spirituality - anything) until one day realzie how wrong you were and there is other side of the coin as well

from my expeirence beliving (whatever it might be) helps survival instinct - get pass another day, on the other hand lack of faith and hopeless leads to self-destruction (suicide)
so overall it might only gen's trick to keep us alive

[Truth Addict]

@OmniYoga

Of course, while everything you said can be right, there's still the issue of heaven and hell.

I don't know about other people, but I literally used to live in hell before I was introduced to spirituality. So, I find talking about God (Truth) very valuable.

The ego always wants to survive, but better survive happily, rather than miserable.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Truth Addict

[OmniYoga]

@Truth Addict what is heaven for you?
 

[Highest]

Yes, indeed. All I know about God is that He is formless. I know I am It, I know all is God. From experience and direct consciousness both sober and high.

I have always believed in God, just the wrong idea and concept of God. An omnipotent being somewhere outside the universe which created it. Did this help me realize God? I don’t think so. Years of Self-inquiry and contemplation made me conscious of God and that I am God. 

So yes, It may or may not be an obstacle to learn about God. It may and may not help believing in God beforehand, but self-inqury is the way to God because what you want is to become conscious, aware of God.

[SoonHei]

On 2/19/2019 at 0:42 PM, Shin said:

"Knowledge" is important to make sense of what you will experience, and not dismiss it for some mental state.

If you get some glimpses, that's not it.
If you get an awakening experience, that's not it.
If you get self-realized, that's still not it (only half way).

Most people will get stuck at the first two stages, and get arrogant as fuck.
The ones who get to stage 3, oh boy, they are even more arrogant ...

@Shin at stage 3 (self realization) isn't that full awakening? sahaja samadhi? why would they be arrogant at that stage? and you write (half-way) ... isn't self-realization the "final step?"

[Truth Addict]

3 hours ago, OmniYoga said:

@Truth Addict what is heaven for you?
 

It's where I don't suffer, no matter what.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Truth Addict