5-MeO-DMT, conciousness, brain, EEG coherence

[Enlightenment]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328117125_EEG_studies_of_the_acute_effects_of_5-MeO-_DMT_WBAC_CDMX_July_27-29_2018

And results of EEG scan of Martin's Ball brain starts at 9 min. : https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/entheogenic/episodes/2019-01-07T13_19_14-08_00

 

Quote

We found two main patterns of communication across regions. One simply reflected physical connections of the brain, such as communication only between pairs of regions that have a direct physical link between them. This was seen in patients with virtually no conscious experience. One represented very complex brain-wide dynamic interactions across a set of 42 brain regions that belong to six brain networks with important roles in cognition (see image above). This complex pattern was almost only present in people with some level of consciousness.

Importantly, this complex pattern disappeared when patients were under deep anaesthesia, confirming that our methods were indeed sensitive to the patients’ level of consciousness and not their general brain damage or external responsiveness.

5-MeO-DMT decrease Delta and Alpha power, increase Theta, Beta and especially Gamma brain waves

5-MeO-DMT induce Hypercoherence

Doesn't seem like overall absolute power decreased

 

[Leo Gura]

Very interesting.

Increasing beta is not right though. You want beta to be as low as possible and alpha as high as possible. That's what meditation does.

Yes, coherence is super important.

Gamma is also important.

[Forestluv]

@Leo Gura You mentioned you use an EEG machine as a meditation tool. Do you have a recommendation in the $3,000 range. It's something I want to look into for my personal use and possibly with students if I get skilled enough.

[Aaron p]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Leo Gura You mentioned you use an EEG machine as a meditation tool. Do you have a recommendation in the $3,000 range. It's something I want to look into for my personal use and possibly with students if I get skilled enough.

@Serotoninluv how do you get students? Do they have to apply to be your students? And you advertise in the news paper "enlightened guru, $10 an hour for teaching"

Is there a place you go?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Leo Gura You mentioned you use an EEG machine as a meditation tool. Do you have a recommendation in the $3,000 range. It's something I want to look into for my personal use and possibly with students if I get skilled enough.

It's very technical to learn. Most people will not figure it out, and it is not easy to explain. Which is why I don't talk about it much.

Took me a month of tedious research to figure it out.

[Outer]

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Leo Gura You mentioned you use an EEG machine as a meditation tool. Do you have a recommendation in the $3,000 range. It's something I want to look into for my personal use and possibly with students if I get skilled enough.

I would buy a Cyton + Dyson Biosensing boards from OpenBCI at 16 channels for $1000,  then probably their headset either unassembled which is cheaper or their assembled one for $800. (or if you have your own 3d printer, even cheaper) The thing about EEG is that it only measures the most outer part of the brain as its near the skull where the electrodes are. The deeper part it really doesn't measure at all. But it is possible to use algorithms like sLORETA which is basically source localization, figuring out where the EEG signals are coming from. That means you can with a lot of computing power possibly get deeper braing regions like the PCC which is the center node of the DMN. Then you just neurofeedback to shut it down. I don't know if there is anything cheaper or better. But typically the more channels the better.  The scientist are able to better get deeper into the brain since they do over a hundred channels to be able to figure out where the signals are coming from. Neurofeedback is basically you viewing  your own brain activity and then you can improve your meditation. If I didn't buy it from OpenBCI and at the same time support free (as in freedom) and open source hardware I might buy something cheap from China. I haven't bought or used it though. But that would be what I would buy.

For instance these people used OpenBCI 16 channel with the Ultracortex headset to visualize brain regions with sLORETA:

http://thomaskosch.com/index.php/2016/09/28/visualizing-real-time-brain-localization-in-3d/

I don't know how real-time these visualizations are, but if they are very real time it could be useful. Some genius could probably program some fun games like a game with a rocket that is taking off depending on the amount of PCC deactivation as calculated with sLORETA. Of course at the same time increasing activation of IIRC, like the right frontal lobe of the task positive network. Just in case if the deactivation happens in other places. Basically to program it for increased activation of regions of the brain that deal with task-positive network and decreased activation of regions of the brain with default mode network. A healthy user is going to deactivate DMN just by looking and staring (not blinking) but this might increase that.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Outer

[Leo Gura]

The EEG machine itself is fairly cheap: $800. But the software, accessories, and training materials will cost another $1,500 at least.

[Enlightenment]

@Leo Gura Coherence is always important but what kind of brain waves will increase/decrease will depend on meditation technique 

for example, Transcendental Meditation is all about alpha but it's a rather dull meditation

Samatha aka concentration seems to be about Gamma     

 

[Outer]

Does the changing of brain waves make any difference if the DMN is nonexistent?@Enlightenment

Edited February 20, 2019 by Outer

[Enlightenment]

34 minutes ago, Outer said:

Does the changing of brain waves make any difference if the DMN is nonexistent?

@Outer

Yes, being enlightened ≠ being good at meditation   and   being good at meditation ≠ being enlightened

of course, being good at meditation gives someone a good chance to get enlightened but doesn't guarantee it

We can even say that there are 3 main categories of spiritual development: Insight (classic enlightenment), concentration, loving-kindness practices, and all of them are beneficial

It does make a difference because you can still have disunified mind and therefore aversion, no joy, dullness, scattered attention even with quiet DMN

[Enlightenment]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What does it mean to be good at meditation?

@Joseph Maynor

Ability to perfectly concentrate for 1h+ on any object in consciousness you choose, with no dullness/very high alertness, effortlessly

[Brenzo2]

13 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Leo Gura You mentioned you use an EEG machine as a meditation tool. Do you have a recommendation in the $3,000 range. It's something I want to look into for my personal use and possibly with students if I get skilled enough.

You may want to check out a similar instrument; the muse headband on AMAZON. In the UK its around £240. Not too bad but definitely not as advanced. 

[outlandish]

This is damn interesting.

I've heard that the muse headband is a bit hokey/gimmicky - too simple and too few sensors to be of any use. Not speaking from personal experience at all, just that I looked into it at one point and that was my impression coming out of it.

[Forestluv]

For those of you interested in the DMN, it is a network of brain activity associated with repetitive self-referential thinking. It is thought to be hyper-active in certain mental states, such as depression. Repetitive self-referential thinking may include "Why does this always happen to me", "I will never get better", "If only my father didn't hurt me when I was younger". Such thoughts can essentially form a self-referential loop which is difficult to break free of to see the bigger picture or different perspectives. Psychologists face the challenge of uncoupling this loop during talk therapy. Brain scans indicate activities such as meditation, yoga and psychedelics can temporarily uncouple the DMN, allowing the possibility for post-egoic insights to arise.

 @Outer Thank you for that detailed info on EEG machines, it helps me get started.

 

 

[Outer]

Here's a fun paper I found on it (with a fun title).

http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/departments/neurology/Divisions/Child_Neurology/Child_Neurology_References/ADHD/Buckner 2012.pdf

The serendipitous discovery of the brain's default network

[Jack River]

8 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What does it mean to be good at meditation?  This is like being good at urinating.  Urination is not an art and neither is meditation.

It depends what people mean by meditation.

There is what many refer to as meditation of concentration on specific objects(movement) of experience. This brings about a silence cultivated through mind. Yet when that silence is depended upon (the condition of cultivation or systematatic repetition) that is limited by measure to sustain that silence. 

Then there is the meditation that doesn’t focus on one aspect or exclude any movement within experience. A silence that has no root in any condition of mind. This implies no premeditated action of will or volition (desire) or subject/object duality(time).

One “art” has its root in effort/control-suppression/munipulation and the latter “art” is effortless/non-doing without observation limited to evaluation or that of measure(mind). 

This is how I understand the difference in meditation. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Jack River

[Jack River]

We would have to figure out what “art” refered to in order to say what is art and not, I think. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Jack River

[Jack River]

To me personally art implies puting “things” in there right place. Which means what stands under or is essential (without beginning or end) to such movement/focus/concentration/reaction etc. 

To me only what is essential (AWARENESS) has such power. 

In that sense art to me implies all that arises within ones day.

Even urinating?

To me meditation is an art and cannot be excluded from daily life. 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Jack River

[outlandish]

@Serotoninluv I thought DMN was agnostic to content, that the content of DMN isn't necessarily reflected by specific repetitive or negative thought. Isn't it characterized more by a fixed ego mode of thinking rather than specific thoughts? My model of how the DMN relates to subjective experience was that it's the persistent sense or illusion of "self" rather than the stories we wrap around this ego. Although I can also see how like the invisible man, there's nothing left once you remove these stories.

This isn't rhetorical questioning, it's a question because I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about! I'm not even sure there is an answer to the question "what does the DMN feel like".

[Forestluv]

@outlandish I'm by no means an expert on DMN function and brain circuitry is interconnected - so there is no discrete DMN network independent of other brain activity. My understanding is that the DMN is necessary, yet insufficient, for a sense of self. Nearly all humans have a baseline level of self - we contextualize our lives relative to how it impacts our sense of self. There are different degrees of connectivity. Most people can temporarily step outside this self and observe the self, at least temporarily. For example, some people may focus on how their father harmed them and how their problems in life are due to their upbringing. Yet when guided, most people could see another point of view. For example, a psychologist may ask to consider things from the father's point of view. Perhaps the father grew up in an abusive house and his father abandoned him. Perhaps the father had children too young and was in over his head. Most people could pause and think "yea, I hadn't thought about it like that before". . . As well, most people are not self consumed all day. They may go hiking and lose their self in nature for a little while.

The thought examples I gave were arising from DMN hyper-connectivity and activity. An extreme form of self immersion and self defensiveness. This could be expressed through narcissism or depression. Or, extreme goal setting and ambition. I would predict the Wolf of Wall Street guy had extreme DMN activity. 

My understanding is that the DMN is within a larger network for thinking. For example, abstract (non-self) thinking is centered outside the DMN. As well, the DMN may be reinforced through other brain areas such as the amygdala (a fear center). And hyper-DMN activity can inhibit other brain function and experience - such as the insular region associated with a sense of empathy. I'd love to see some brain scans on Trump. I'd predict a hyper-active DMN and amygdala and repressed insula.

Below is a recent research article of psilocybin-based treatment for resistant-depression. Consistent with previous work, the brain scans indicated that during the psilocybin trip there was DMN disintegration, global integration and amygdala repression. After treatment, patients were categorized as responders and nonresponders. Amygdala repression was temporary and returned to normal activity. The DMN re-integrated in all patients, yet there were differences of DMN re-integration between responders and nonresponders. The authors hypothesized that complete DMN disintegration serves as a "reset" and allows the DMN to re-integrate in a healthier manner (I would add that post-treatment therapy during the re-integration is likely to be helpful).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-13282-7