How to differentiate between a mystical experience and mental disorder?

[S-Max]

Hi everyone,

I have followed Leo's videos almost from the beginning and it's amazing that his last two videos are very close to an issue I'm dealing with and found out about just recently . I'm so desperate to find out whether my brother has developed a mental disorder or he is experiencing God . I'm an atheist and do not believe in God, however, I believe in enlightenment if that even makes sense to you, so I want others opinions, especially people who believe in God. I have already booked psychiatrist appointments just to have their opinions as well, but as you know, it's not uncommon to get misdiagnosed and labeled with mental disorder. 

And apologies if you find anything unclear here, I'm not a native English speaker.

My brother is 35 and lives alone in another country for like 10 years. Our parents are believers, not religious, but strangely enough my brother is a vary dogmatic religious person.  I just recently found out that he has been experiencing some connection to a higher power and God as he describes it. He said it started 6 years ago when he was praying and  it started connecting with him by moving his fingers uncontrollably , and after a couple of years it started connecting to hime by writing with his hand, meaning my brother starts writing but not what he thinks, it's like someone else is using his hand to connect with him and speaks with him through writing.  And he says it's been like a year that this higher power started speaking to him with a very gentle voice and asks my brother to do some good deeds. And sometimes it controls his body and walks him a few steps uncontrollably. He refuses to see a psychiatrist and he even believes that it's an insult to the higher power to doubt this experience. As I mentioned, I'm going to consult this with 3 different psychiatrists but I want spiritual mindset opinions on this as well.

Leo answered the question "Is it possible to have a false experience of God" in 1:01:40, and his answer is that you know it when you awaken, he also answers the question that why people with different beliefs experience God in different ways such as seeing Jesus. but as I mentioned my brother is very dogmatic and biased and I'm not sure if he's deluded or having mystical experiences.

I appreciate if you can share any thoughts on this and please share if you have any similar experience.

Best,

Max

 

 

 

[Salvijus]

I would avoid psychiatrists. They will only mess him up even more. They don't know anything about such matters.

 

Does he use psychedelics?

Edited February 16, 2019 by Salvijus

[S-Max]

36 minutes ago, Bojan said:

Don't take him to the psychiatrist if you are not in a first world country. Does he have a job or something?

He went through some though times and has been depressed for some time and basically didn't do anything for a long time. But 6 month ago he decided to finish his studies. So now he's studying and working part time. 

[S-Max]

25 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I would avoid psychiatrists. They will only mess him up even more. They don't know anything about such matters.

 

Does he use psychedelics?

No, I'm sure of it.

I'm afraid of psychiatrists too, but I don't really know what to do. I'm afraid if it's a mental disorder and if we don't take action now, it will get sever and hard to handle. 

[Matt23]

If it's serious I'd take him to someone professional.  To be safe.  You don't have to "believe" everything they say, but be open to their help.

For me, I found that community and feeling like I had close relationships and seeing people regularly was really key for me, though I found it hard to do this all the time.

I'm also not 100% trusting of the psychiatric model for similar reason of being labeled and given medications that only makes things worse.  I think it has something to do with me thinking I'll "lose" myself or get indoctrinated or something.  

But, I've struggled with several interrelated mental and emotional issues (like hitting myself uncontrollably, like my hand was possessed or something), and have gone to a few cousellors over the years.  But not for very long.  

I've never taken medications, except LSD, Ayahuasca, and Peyote.  

But, I think the thing that helped me out the most was doing a solo retreat and literally just doing nothing for 6-10 days.  

I feel so much more capable and "in control" / not nearly as unhealthy.  

A question to ask might be "Is his quality of life getting worse or better?"  Does he seem healthy and regular apart from what you've mentioned?  

[S-Max]

@Matt23 Thanks a ton for sharing your experience. Actually, he is doing better now, he has more understanding towards people and he is very calmer (he was a bit aggressive before). Now he thinks he's chosen to do good deeds and I think it makes him feel good. He said some days his finger guides him to go to some neighbourhoods he hasn't been before and see how some people live in bad conditions. And he walks miles with no intention to go anywhere but his finger guides him. He said he is sometimes very tired and thirsty and hungry to continue the walk but the voice calmly encourages him to continue and says to him ''Trust us". 

I'm the only person he shared this with (the only reason was to encourage me to believe in God, and he's now praying for me to experience the same thing). Even though he's more in peace now, I'm afraid if I don't do anything about it, it gets sever and hard to treat. But I don't really know how to go about it. 

If I may ask, do you believe it was God when you were experiencing that your hand was possessed?

Edited February 17, 2019 by S-Max

[Nahm]

15 hours ago, S-Max said:

my brother is very dogmatic and biased and I'm not sure if he's deluded or having mystical experiences

The proof is of course in the pudding, but you haven’t shared any of what your brother has written. So the post is not actually about what’s going on with him, but rather, it’s about you pigeonholing, labeling, summarizing him as a person - though I understand you think it is, and I understand your concerns for him, and hope he is steadily on the path. 

Are you attached to that perspective, or are you open minded - open to looking at any perspective?

Can you look at the perspective, that you are actually the one who is dogmatic and atheism is a basic defensive mechanism....you are biased for lack of self inquiry....you are deluded ( = atheism).....and in actuality you are “having” a mystical experience right now - but because of the things stated previously here, you aren’t aware of it? 

14 hours ago, S-Max said:

He went through some though times and has been depressed for some time and basically didn't do anything for a long time. But 6 month ago he decided to finish his studies. So now he's studying and working part time. 

Sounds like he did some shadow work and is doing much ‘better’ for having done it. 

15 hours ago, S-Max said:

As I mentioned, I'm going to consult this with 3 different psychiatrists but I want spiritual mindset opinions on this as well.

What about you, would be the spiritual mindset. What do you really want of your brother? Not for him - what is it you are after for you? If you could snap your fingers, what would he do / be? Then look at your beliefs regarding that, and look at how those beliefs are playing out in your life. 

As an Atheist, you have barely begun to actually look into this for yourself. Atheism is indeed a very strong belief system. Just imagine for a minute, how many beliefs God must hold to honestly believe there is no God. You might want to get started on meditation and self inquiry. That, will answer every question you could ever have about your brother, God, or anyone or anything else for that matter.

[S-Max]

@Nahm Thanks for your comment. This is not really about me or my belief system and I am not here to oppose or encourage anything. I would be jumping up and down if someone can for sure tell me this is God and nothing else. Please be more understanding that I'm very worried about my brother and hope from the bottom of my heart that I am wrong and this is God and not a mental disorder.

Edited February 17, 2019 by S-Max

[Nahm]

@S-Max

Whatcha gonna do with my understanding? (Apparently disregard it)

Your understanding is what could be more helpful to your brother - ahhh - but for that, you’d have to do a lot of work. 

I hear you. But you might consider, did you think the answer would be in the already known wheelhouse from which arose the question? Such is the same for you and the path.

“I would be jumping up and down if someone can for sure tell me this is God”

That’s all anything and anyone has ever told you. You’re not listening to anyone or anything. 

[S-Max]

@Nahm Could you give me some insights from your perspective? what do you think about this whole thing going on about my brother?  

I want to hear others opinions. 

 

Edited February 17, 2019 by S-Max

[Nahm]

@S-Max I don’t know the first thing about the whole thing. But if you have specific questions about it I might be useful. 

[S-Max]

@Nahm Do you think this is a mystical experience?

If you have any question about the details please ask specifically.

[S-Max]

@Nahm I just read your edited reply, you can discard my previous comment and thanks for sharing your insight.

Edited February 17, 2019 by S-Max

[Nahm]

@S-Max

Other-than-a-mystical experience is a belief you’re holding. It’s like asking me to tell you where to find hay in a haystack. 

What are your concerns for your brother’s well being, in order of immediacy? Can you share maybe 3 or so? Not “he might go crazy one day”. I’m asking what are you seeing with him now, specifically, which is concerning. (An example might be if someone has not eaten for 3 days because “God told them not to eat”, the concern is malnutrition / starvation.)

[S-Max]

@Nahm My concerns are mostly about these unusual behaviours and thoughts:

• Believing that our grandmother who was very close to him and passed away recently, is actually not passed but was replaced with someone else few weeks before she passed. This is one of the writings while his hand was possessed.
• Talking to himself, which is actually responding to God
• He walks all day to other side of the town because the voice or his hand guides him to do so, and he doesn't know the destination, even though he got foot blister from previous walks and very tired and frustrated he still does that if God wants him to do so.

Edited February 17, 2019 by S-Max

[Nahm]

@S-Max

Overall, in my opinion (which comes from complete ignorance about his situation)....this is not “the work of God”, but neither is it a “mental disorder”. (Exactly why it’s so difficult for you to help him with, I’m sure. Not to mention being in another country)

It strikes me as right in the middle. I think he faced some fear in his life, and let some things go, and experienced well being (not God “directly” so to speak) but is having one heck of a deluded time making any sense of things, likely because something in his past is still held on to, and so his present experiences are all filtered / seen through the past experience - but he wouldn’t be aware of this if he hasn’t inspected it. Sounds like he is doing better (studying & working part time), and got his responsibilities back in order which is great to hear. Therapy is tricky in that light because it could help him greatly, but it could also set him back. If he is safely ‘on track’ and doing well, look to amplify what he is doing which is bringing about the ‘doing well’ - bring it to the forefront of his attention in hopes he realizes it more deeply, and feels good about taking care of himself, and is motivated / inspired / acknowledged, to keep doing so. This could also strengthen how he sees you. Ideally he sees you as in this with him, so he is comfortable expressing his thoughts and emotions deeper and deeper over time. I’m sure we’d agree the main point is him being on the trajectory of well being.            If the rest of this post doesn’t seem helpful, just ignore it.  

 

Did he believe that ‘message’, about your grandmother, or did he ‘channel write’ it and find it interesting / surprising / odd - as in, he didn’t understand it himself - the hand just “wrote it”? 

Did you ask him logical questions about it, like, who or where did this “replacement grandmother” come from, where is she now? IF she replaced grandma, what happened to grandma? What did he say?

That sounds like complete denial of her death imo, not spiritual / nondual awareness / the higher power - but it could be both also, with him in a state of confusion. Perhaps the notion of grandma being ‘replaced’ prior to dying is a rejection of her death deriving from an intense fear of death / loss. So did he, or someone he knew well almost die, or was hospitalized for a while but recovered?  What is his history / experience with death? When he was young, did someone foundational to him pass unexpectedly, unfairly - like a parent, sibling, teacher, grandparent, friend, etc? Did he have a near death experience, or a severe life threatening disease, or anything like that? 

You said he’s 35. How old are you? Does he have more siblings, hold old are they?

Why did he move to another country 10 years ago?

With “believer” parents, what led to him becoming a “very dogmatically religious person”? That’s pretty rare, so it’s potentially a big clue/ insight into his perspective.

Talking to himself out loud, or he tells you he talks to God in his head?  What is the outcome of this? Anything other than ‘doing the good deeds’ and walking around? Any signs of hurting himself, or others? (I’d be concerned to, just looking for more info and a deeper understanding of the relativity)

You mentioned he went through some ‘tough times’. What were they specifically? Highly likely more understanding of his perspective will be found here.

You mentioned he refuses to see a therapist and considers it an insult to the ‘higher power’. I’d consider presenting the therapy to him as not something opposing his experience, but rather talking to someone who can help him on his calling, someone who can help him bring even more clarity to his newly found purpose in terms of continuing to meet his own personal responsibilities, while gaining a clearer vision of who to help and how to do it - versus walking for miles, etc. The perspective that he is wasting a lot of time doing such things which would be better spent helping people might appeal to him. You might also connect more with him expressing God wants the best for all of us, and therapy can be a good way to get a better understanding of our own psychology - which is itself God’s creation. 

 

It sounds like the “channeling-writing”, and higher power connection developed slowly over time.   Do you recall your brother having an unmistakable life changing specific event (awakening)? 

[S-Max]

@Nahm  I have tears in my eyes reading your response and the fact that you took the time to write all this. You have no idea what it means to me in this situation.

I don't know some of the details you asked. I'm gonna ask him and will come back to you as soon as possible.

[Nahm]

@S-Max Awesome, and anytime.   Maybe another time, we do some work on that atheism. ?

[S-Max]

@Nahm hahaha I love hearing others, and to be honest I'm more of an agnostic atheist. 

Could I PM you the details about my brother. He doesn't know anything about this and I sort of feel uncomfortable sharing more about him here.

 

 

[Nahm]

@S-Max Yes, no problem.