How can I Choose to Awaken if I Have No Free Will?

[Wisebaxter]

8 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Suffering will arise when we identify with the arising and subsiding activity of mind. This means we are constantly escaping our suffering through seeking security in the objects of experience.

So if you haven't experienced the underlying formlessness then forms have the potential to cause suffering? If I have experienced it I can become away that forms are just a manifestation of formlessness and love them all no matter what they are, hence the love simulator analogy Leo mentioned....

Thanks for all that Jack. Will ponder your words some more. 

@Serotoninluv Thanks dude. Gonna soak that in and come back at you with questions if needed. My brains is starting to fizzle so I think I need to do some self enquiry to connect to some that's real instead of bouncing around all these concepts. It's all useful though. I can see how the right theory can save you a lot of hassle. 

[Wisebaxter]

4 minutes ago, Jack River said:

If you really want to get to the root of suffering you need to understand the inherent conflict that arises from not seeing through the falsity of the thinker being distinct from the thought. 

Any good tips on how to get there? The usually stuff, self enquiry, psychedelics etc? 

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Wisebaxter said:

In @Leo Gura's latest video he mentioned that it's better to become awakened during this incarnation instead of live a life of suffering. But he also says that God may have a lifetime for suffering planned for us/himself if that's what he wants to experience. This idea, along with the one regarding us having no free will, makes me wonder how me, my ego can really choose to do anything. Every time Leo mentions making a 'decision' in his videos I wonder how decisions can be made with no free will, or is this another one of those lovely paradoxes? I'm just trying grasp how I can make a decision when God is in the driving seat. 

Ask yourself do I want to discover who I am.  And before you say but do I have free choice, just drop that, and feel what happens.  If you feel it in you that you do, then proceed, if not, you don't want it now.  Simple as that.  Let go of all the but this but that, just really really be  serious about the question.

[TheAvatarState]

@Wisebaxter Wow, I was just thinking about creating a post on this very topic.

So here's what it boils down to, the bitter pill to swallow: The level of spiritual development you'll attain in your lifetime is not up to you. If you were meant to become a spiritual master and teacher, then that's what you'll find yourself becoming. If you were meant to have a few awakenings then enjoy the rest of your life as a high-consciousness individual, then that's what you'll become. Nothing wrong with either case! 

The paradox comes in because you, as an ego, have adopted this limited character as yourself and think you have the power to make choices. It's obviously a very natural way of looking at your life. What makes this paradox more confusing is that when you realize there is no "chooser," that realization itself changes your outlook on how you either fight or surrender to life, but of course how you continue isn't really up to you. If you fully surrender to life in a positive way, continue your practices and such, then that could be the greatest thing to ever happen to you. If you use this information in a negative self-defeating way, then you could spiral into depression. I've seen many many people do that very thing. But here's where it gets interesting: you starting this thread and me (and many others) replying could potentially be the deciding factor in how you move forward! We're all wrapped in this infinitely linked and causal chain known as God (actually a singularity), and this is exactly how it was meant to be. I'm not choosing my words to influence you, I'm just as fascinated in this as you are! Who knows where we go from here... 

[Wisebaxter]

@Mu_ Thanks dude, that's helpful. No more but buts  

[Aakash]

18 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

So if you killed someone would that be God making a low consciousness decision, or God, deluded into thinking he's an ego making a decision, not realising he's deluded. I think this gets to the heart of my question. 

YOU ARE GOD, any decision you make is you BEING god. so it would be god making a low conscious decision, 

but also the reality of it in absolute terms is, its god deluding himself into thinking hes an ego and either loves killing or needs to kill to survive

but even in this scenario YOU ARE GOD. 

one is the non dual answer and one is the duality answer 

they're both correct statements

[Aakash]

@TheAvatarState interesting, this does make sense. even if i talk about it in incrimentals of now and making decisions, ultimatley the big picture thinking is what you described. thanks this is actually a huge load of my shoulders  

agreed who knows what's going to happen! infinite intelligence does  

Edited February 15, 2019 by Aakash

[Wisebaxter]

10 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

If you fully surrender to life in a positive way, continue your practices and such, then that could be the greatest thing to ever happen to you. If you use this information in a negative self-defeating way, then you could spiral into depression

So on the surface that looks like a choice happening, but really, it's cause and effect. Will I or won't I depends on what's been predetermined. The choice will always be made for me. I sure hope the choice, or whatever we want to call it, leads to some joy lol. Love your post by the way. I I feel you nailed this one. If I had to choose something for myself it would be that I choose to keep doing the practices, take a load of psychedelics and become fully enlightened. Maybe I'll write God a kind of Christmas list and see if he takes pity on me  

Edited February 15, 2019 by Wisebaxter

[Aakash]

@Wisebaxter thats the law of attraction right there, lol! 

[Solace]

You have free will! That is the most special gift you have!

No free will means you choose to live as Love (and let God move through you). This is a very advanced level of awakening, so start with what is here and now in your direct experience. As a conscious freewill being. 

You are the creator of your thoughts, emotions and actions. You are responsible for that. Even if a thought appears out of nowhere, you created it by empowering the subconscious ego structure that is on automatic. 

Whether you want to be a brilliant manifestor and creator in your life, or wish to allow your personal will to unite with Gods, connecting more with your Heart and conscious awareness will help you greatly. But you’ve got to want Divine Love and Stillness more than anything else in the world. More than any thought, or feeling. You allow everything to be as it is in perfection, accepting resistance or uncomfortable emotions as perfection, not following Gods will as perfection, meet everything with perfection that you resist, and live as Love, consciousness, and infinite intelligence.

Its your freewill choice to live from your head or live from your heart ?

[Jack River]

30 minutes ago, Aakash said:

@Jack River yeah agreed i think that is literally what it means to be free of suffering( i count this as liberation) , or do you think theres a blissful state by which no suffering occurs at all when you really embody it? 

I think until there is a holistic seeing through all the apparent divisions between the subject & the objects of experience, there will be to much of a partial understanding of this activity. We have then not seen how all the subtleties of that duality in operation as a single indivisible whole. If we divide such activity into pieces this makes awareness very complex. To see it all as one unit in movement really makes observing the complex simple. 

We may not see that both the thinker and the thought are one and the same movement of time. Not seeing that the arising body/mind (ego) is born in association with its preconceived and overly fascination with the objects of experience. This really makes for a sort of a scrambled awareness and therefore subtle resistance is not caught at the door.

Also makes it much more difficult to discern between subject/object activity and the KNOWING of such. But we have gone into that already. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jack River

[Aakash]

@Jack River yeah i'm with you thats what i'm dealing with at the moment, but i'm not considerably worried about still being fascinated to the point of scrambled awareness, whats beyond this, that you've experienced. you stay aware of awareness all day long and you never come back to being the story again. would you consider that full detachment from the ego? 

[TheAvatarState]

@Wisebaxter Let me put it really bluntly: Get out of your own fucking way and see what happens.  The only conceivable outcome with this attitude is presence and joy! Don't get wrapped up in the events that might or might not happen to you, because in the end that's not what's important (and surrender to the fact you don't have control over them anyway). You are here to be loving, happy, and healthy, I mean, what else could you really ask for? Leave the rest up to God, so to speak.

Realized and actualized properly, these insights should cause a ginormous weight to be lifted off your soul... because if you're really honest with yourself, you don't want that kind of power and responsibility. What if you're wrong? What if you're right? These are all just mind games to trap you! Connect with your True nature and lead from the heart; great things await.

Of course this is a lot easier said than done, and I'm working on getting there myself... But I'm certain this is the way life was meant to be lived. I know it from within, and I'm already past the event horizon... No one could convince me otherwise  

[Jack River]

1 hour ago, Aakash said:

 

@Jack River yeah i'm with you thats what i'm dealing with at the moment, but i'm not considerably worried about still being fascinated to the point of scrambled awareness,

 

What I mean is if we find ourselves in conflict with two opposing thoughts or reactions as the thinker in relation to the emotion/feeling, we are still seeing this duality in distinctions. If I see that the thinker and the thought derive there life from the same source(time-memory) then I see that the only reason there is conflict is that very reason. And that is I have separated them as two distinct “things”. From this point of view there is a thought that arises, then the I thought comes in and says I don’t like “it” and arises the conflict. But the first thought already ended before that second thought (i dont like it) began. So this apparent distinction gives a false sense of continuity as the separate self. 

 

1 hour ago, Aakash said:

you stay aware of awareness all day long and you never come back to being the story again. would you consider that full detachment from the ego? 

No to me it’s one indivisible totality. “Detachment” is the action of seeing this false distinction...The KNOWING or (I AM) is recognized as itself, and is seen to take the form as modulated experience. 

But with a holistic understanding of this modulated activity there is not a tendency to have to stop and “find” that KNOWING systematically. 

Also, when conflict is not subtly fed by this modulated activity, the sense of KNOWING, or that interval between what activity does arise, is much more extended and deepened. It’s not a small interval of KNOWING and larger intervals of experience, but the opposite. 

So when the modulated activity of consciousness is needed it is there, but when it is not, it is not. There is a simple resting as I AM. 

 

Made a couple edits. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jack River

[Aakash]

@Jack River yeah i'm with you on what you said, so you decide to live in one unitary movement in the now. whilst i'm still not so far ahead in my embodiment, i find it difficult to stay in the unmodulated non activity, or am unable to detach as clearly as you said. but is it really wrong, to remain in conflict with thought-time modulations and end your search there. by this point everything is already an illusion to you, including the past decisions you have made even though you know thats also an illusion after you make the decision. 

[Preetom]

@Wisebaxter

The thing is, the notion of ''no free-will'', ''there is nothing to do'', ''you are already god'' etc. are some of the final consequences/ramifications of non-dual self-realization.

In the direct path(just being aware of being aware), we don't have any process or goal. We start at the finish line and stay put there...until there is no urge to move from that place. It's a path of being.

But in all indirect paths (all other yogas, meditations etc), a long arduous and often multilayered maps, goals, milestones etc are provided and the aspirant is supposed to go through it. It's an arduous doing process, and no non-dual 'truths' mentioned in the first sentence has any relevance to this path. Imagine someone has to do 2 hours of mantra meditation everyday and he is also feeding himself with no free will philosophy. This just ain't gonna work. So long story short, in indirect paths there is no place for these non-dual truths beforehand.

But they sure have a place for the direct path because here ''the starting point-process-goal'' is the same. Being aware of being aware.

Now if you are on the direct path, how much free will do you need to be aware? Aren't you already aware?

If you are aware/being, you are awakening. As simple as that.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Preetom

[ajasatya]

12 hours ago, Wisebaxter said:

How can I Choose to Awaken if I Have No Free Will?

"your" will is "god's" will
unity means ONE
there is an illusion of separation
on the level of thoughts, only

[Wisebaxter]

@ajasatya

38 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

"your" will is "god's" will
unity means ONE
there is an illusion of separation
on the level of thoughts, only

So if I make a choice on the level of ego and it leads to unconsciousness or suffering, that was still God's will? Just a deluded God, thinking it's a self? And the purpose there was to experience suffering....

[ajasatya]

1 minute ago, Wisebaxter said:

@ajasatya

So if I make a choice on the level of ego and it leads to unconsciousness or suffering, that was still God's will? Just a deluded God, thinking it's a self? And the purpose there was to experience suffering....

you can't try to grasp the absolute perspective and still imagine lower/higher purposes or individualities such as "I" or "God". Reality is ONE. the mind can't go any further than this.

[Wisebaxter]

11 hours ago, Solace said:

You have free will! That is the most special gift you have!

No free will means you choose to live as Love (and let God move through you). This is a very advanced level of awakening, so start with what is here and now in your direct experience. As a conscious freewill being. 

You are the creator of your thoughts, emotions and actions. You are responsible for that. Even if a thought appears out of nowhere, you created it by empowering the subconscious ego structure that is on automatic. 

Whether you want to be a brilliant manifestor and creator in your life, or wish to allow your personal will to unite with Gods, connecting more with your Heart and conscious awareness will help you greatly. But you’ve got to want Divine Love and Stillness more than anything else in the world. More than any thought, or feeling. You allow everything to be as it is in perfection, accepting resistance or uncomfortable emotions as perfection, not following Gods will as perfection, meet everything with perfection that you resist, and live as Love, consciousness, and infinite intelligence.

Its your freewill choice to live from your head or live from your heart ?

@Solace That was beautiful, thank you

11 hours ago, TheAvatarState said:

Let me put it really bluntly: Get out of your own fucking way and see what happens.  The only conceivable outcome with this attitude is presence and joy! Don't get wrapped up in the events that might or might not happen to you, because in the end that's not what's important (and surrender to the fact you don't have control over them anyway). You are here to be loving, happy, and healthy, I mean, what else could you really ask for? Leave the rest up to God, so to speak.

Realized and actualized properly, these insights should cause a ginormous weight to be lifted off your soul... because if you're really honest with yourself, you don't want that kind of power and responsibility. What if you're wrong? What if you're right? These are all just mind games to trap you! Connect with your True nature and lead from the heart; great things await.

@TheAvatarState So if I was to live like this, it would feel like just living from the heart, from love and basically letting go of all resistance? I can dig that. You're right, I really don't want that kind of power lol. I've demonstrated thus far in my life that I'm rubbish at making choices as an ego. I'll connect with my true nature and let God take over I think.