How can I Choose to Awaken if I Have No Free Will?

[Wisebaxter]

In @Leo Gura's latest video he mentioned that it's better to become awakened during this incarnation instead of live a life of suffering. But he also says that God may have a lifetime for suffering planned for us/himself if that's what he wants to experience. This idea, along with the one regarding us having no free will, makes me wonder how me, my ego can really choose to do anything. Every time Leo mentions making a 'decision' in his videos I wonder how decisions can be made with no free will, or is this another one of those lovely paradoxes? I'm just trying grasp how I can make a decision when God is in the driving seat. 

[Aaron p]

No matter what decision you make, no matter how complex the systems that lead you to make the final decision, no matter how random you make your selection...it was always going to be like that and not any other way. 

From what I have seen.

It is not my choice to be writing this right now. And if I decided to not write this, that's what has been predestined to.

Also, I don't think you can "choose" to awaken...I think it's that you become aware that you are no the one who chooses 

[Maya_0]

In truth, we don't choose to do anything but we still must pretend that we do.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Maya_0

[Wisebaxter]

@Aaron p That's the way I see things too, that every decision was exactly as it should be. So you're saying that no matter what it is God that chooses, even if it feels like the ego, then it's God making the decision? That makes sense as Leo also says in the video that God has to manifest itself as the ego order to experience what it is. Perhaps my confusion is seeing God and ego as separate. So basically when I make a dumb ass decision that was always the plan and vice versa. When I decide I don't want to suffer, God has decided it doesn't want to suffer. 

Ultimately these things can only be truly known through mystical experiences I'd imagine. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Wisebaxter

[Aaron p]

2 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@Aaron p That's the way I see things too, that every decision was exactly as it should be. So you're saying that no matter what it is God that chooses, even if it feels like the ego, then it's God making the decision? That makes sense as Leo also says in the video that God has to manifest itself as the ego order to experience what it is. Perhaps my confusion is seeing God and ego as separate. So basically when I make a dumb ass decision that was always the plan and vice versa. When I decide I don't want to suffer, God has decided it doesn't want to suffer. 

@Wisebaxter I'm pretty sure everything is cause and effect. Would I be typing these words right now if you hadn't have replied?

[Wisebaxter]

11 minutes ago, Aaron p said:

@Wisebaxter I'm pretty sure everything is cause and effect. Would I be typing these words right now if you hadn't have replied?

So this suggests that decisions don't get made? Hmm, I can see that....kind of a mindfuck.....so really that's also suggesting that I don't have a choice as to whether I live a shitty, miserable life or a good one. I just have to hope that cause and effect culminates in something enjoyable happening. I guess that cause and effect seems to take on the guise of a decision - which gives me a level of security. If I can feel like I have a choice, I don't feel quite so trapped. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Wisebaxter

[Rinne]

@Leo Gura @Leo Gura

[Forestluv]

@Wisebaxter How can I choose to fall asleep if I have no free wiil? I relax, surrender and let it take over. 

[Wisebaxter]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Wisebaxter How can I choose to fall asleep if I have no free wiil? I relax, surrender and let it take over. 

Could you elaborate a little? Are you saying that decisions like these are proof of free will? That it's you deciding to fall asleep and not God? 

[Shin]

34 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

In @Leo Gura's latest video he mentioned that it's better to become awakened during this incarnation instead of live a life of suffering. But he also says that God may have a lifetime for suffering planned for us/himself if that's what he wants to experience. This idea, along with the one regarding us having no free will, makes me wonder how me, my ego can really choose to do anything. Every time Leo mentions making a 'decision' in his videos I wonder how decisions can be made with no free will, or is this another one of those lovely paradoxes? I'm just trying grasp how I can make a decision when God is in the driving seat. 

Don't think about it, or you'll either use it as a defense mechanism to procrastinate or it will make you suffer in some ways.

From what enlightened beings tells about this, is that there is no free will, and infinite free will, which means the concept of free will collapse totally.
So it's totally useless to think about it, because this goes way beyond anything we can imagine and experience right now.

[Jack River]

What is the “substance” that all of this activity of “How can I”, “Choosing”, and concluding that “I have No Free Will” manifests “from”? 

What is the underlying reality of all this arising and subsiding activity of mind? 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jack River

[Aakash]

@Wisebaxter  you've misinterpretted what hes said, its only a figure of speech put into context, 

in reality there was never a seperate you as wisebaxter anyway, truth includes all and therefore theres no you that will reincarnate into other objects per se. its the same you who was never born or died (this is what jack is trying to say)

the real event of choice comes when you are able not to consider your thoughts as yourself, otherwise your at a lost because you will think you are every thought 

so in that sense it can be seen as predetermined but in truth, the thought quality you come up with is only govererned by your awareness in the first place and therefore improving the quality of your seperate conscious (as illusion) can be improve the decisions you make

in god's eyes i would say it doesn't matter what decision you personally make, the picture as a whole seems like god is becoming more conscious, through the collective effort and not the single indivdual effort. but sometimes you get those unique people that change the course of history

the only grounds to consider there to be absolutely 0 free choice is when all your thoughts are sent by god, but its true that our thoughts are governed by our identifications, our environment and circumstances (karmic thoughts). which are god yes, but in progressive terms are completely different to god deciding your thoughts for you. However, if you believe in the higher being model, then the closer your thought channel will be linked directly to god. 

i would say leo has cleared his thought quality so much due to his kriya yoga, that recieving information from him could be considered embodied direct source, its a tricky one, but yeah. 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Aakash

[Hafiz]

I think what’s best in this case is to find out for yourself. 

So a couple hours of work (meditate, yoga, contemplation, etc) , come back and ask the question again.

[Wisebaxter]

19 minutes ago, Shin said:

From what enlightened beings tells about this, is that there is no free will, and infinite free will, which means the concept of free will collapse totally.

@Shin I like that. Makes sense in terms of duality doesn't it. If God encompasses all that it will encompass free will and no free will. 

18 minutes ago, Aakash said:

the thought quality you come up with is only govererned by your awareness in the first place and therefore improving the quality of your seperate conscious (as illusion) can be improve the decisions you make

@Aakash So the closer you get to God, or the less delusion there is, the better the quality the decision. That seems to be the case and it makes me feel comforted, but for me this raises the question 'what would comprise a bad decision? One that would lead to further delusion perhaps? One that would bring you further from God and more into your egoic state? But then again, if that's the experience God wants....what can be done? Or maybe God always wants to awaken. Mentally masturbating myself silly here lol. I need to plan my next LSD trip and crack on with that. 

18 minutes ago, Jack River said:

What is the “substance” that all of this activity of “How can I”, “Choosing” and concluding that “I have No Free Will” manifests “from”? 

What is the underlying reality of all this arising and subsiding activity of mind? 

@Jack River In a non-dual sense, are they one and the same? The underlying reality and the substance? So you're saying it's all God, whatever the question, whatever the answer....this will require some contemplation. I'm basically just God asking questions about God. 

All I really want to know is, can I choose not to suffer? I friggin hope so lol. Then again that question raises 50 more. Who is this 'I' for starters. Always the same when it comes to dealing with concepts and using the mind. 

19 minutes ago, Shin said:

t's totally useless to think about it, because this goes way beyond anything we can imagine and experience right now.

I think I'll roll with the for now and plug some 5-MeO ASAP

Edited February 15, 2019 by Wisebaxter

[Aakash]

@Wisebaxter a bad or good decision is by your own personal standards, theres no absolute standards, 

an absolute standard is any outcome 

even me killing a person, its just very low consciousness decision (if i think my illusory high consciousness is me) 

aka its relative always, duality is always relative

 

the more you know truth, generally the better decisions you make, of course this is also not the case for example, myself i make terrible decisions even though i know a bit of truth. the only difference is it doesn't define me. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Aakash

[Jack River]

10 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

In a non-dual sense, are they one and the same? The underlying reality and the substance?

When I say reality or substance I’m simply referring to your direct experience itself. Not what arises in and out of that experience as phenomena(thoughts/emotions etc) but all that is born and dies in that experience itself. 

10 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

All I really want to know is, can I choose not to suffer? I friggin hope so lol 

I would forget about god and nondual concepts. Just look ?. Your perceptions/sensations thoughts/emotions and what these derive there life from. In your day to day you will notice that this activity that arises only causes suffering because you are not in touch with the underlying reality of it all. 

Suffering will arise when we identify with the arising and subsiding activity of mind. This means we are constantly escaping our suffering through seeking security in the objects of experience.

What is always there and doesn’t depend the objects of experience? 

That is where your suffering is forgotten. 

Also if you really want to explore suffering more in depth on the separate self level, explore the nature of thought and its relationship to the thinker(the apparent subject/object divison). 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jack River

[Wisebaxter]

2 minutes ago, Aakash said:

even me killing a person, its just very low consciousness decision (if i think my illusory high consciousness is me) 

 

So if you killed someone would that be God making a low consciousness decision, or God, deluded into thinking he's an ego making a decision, not realising he's deluded. I think this gets to the heart of my question. 

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

Could you elaborate a little? Are you saying that decisions like these are proof of free will? That it's you deciding to fall asleep and not God? 

Surrendering to the realization that egoic free will is an illusion is part of evolving to post-egoic conscious states. Once I hit post-egoic states, the desire to explore the nature of free-will dissolved. There is a much stronger desire to enter post-egoic states. From a post-egoic perspective let's explore new realms. I don't care if we call it egoic decisions, infinite decisions, a hamster or a cartwheel. There is a calling to enter the magnificence of post-egoic being. 

For me, falling asleep is a good analogy. When I lay down in bed, if the personal ego is active the mind will stay awake, immersed in the personal story. "I should have done XX at work. If she hadn't said blah blah, then yabber yabber wouldn't have happened". To leave the egoic state of consciousness and enter a new state of consciousness (sleep), the personal egoic dynamics need to relax, surrender and let it happen. I'm not concerned with figuring out what force is guiding that process, if any. I just want to fall asleep.

Similarly, if there is desire to transfer from an egoic state of consciousness to a collective state of consciousness, it is a somewhat similar process. The personal egoic dynamics need to relax, surrender and let it take over. I'm not concerned with intellectually figuring out who/what is making the decisions. I want to enter the direct experience of being in these expanded conscious states. Hyper mind-body awareness. Healing one's own body. Paranormal frequencies with other awakened beings. Being past, present and future in the Now. That is where the juice is for my mind-body right now. The only reason I would want to figure out the "free will" or "decision" part is if it can help me enter those states. Otherwise, it's just building more cognitive constructs. I can see how that would be very appealing to other mind-bodys and it was for me for a long time. Just not right now. 

[Jack River]

If you really want to get to the root of suffering you need to understand the inherent conflict that arises from not seeing through the falsity of the thinker being distinct from the thought. 

[Aakash]

@Jack River yeah agreed i think that is literally what it means to be free of suffering( i count this as liberation) , or do you think theres a blissful state by which no suffering occurs at all when you really embody it?