Is psychedelics causing psychosis a myth? Or not?

[lmfao]

I have a family history of mental illness and psychosis, and so I've been doing a bit of googling around psychedelics. My auntie had schizophrenia, so did her son, my uncle seems to have lost touch with reality but I don't know what condition he has. Meeting my cousin makes me feel sad, since I remember what he used to be like.  So I'm just trying to be careful with all of this.  From what it seems, psychedelics were not associated with an increased risk of mental illness according to most sources. So is the idea that psychedelics and the such cause mental illness just a myth? 

Edited February 14, 2019 by lmfao

[TheAvatarState]

Psychedelics have been known to cause psychosis to those already genetically predisposed. If you decide to use them, you should probably exercise extreme caution. Start with microdosing. Work your way up very incrementally, and never exceed a "medium" dose of any psychedelic. You should be OK if you do that, but it's up to you if the risks are worth it for you. 

[lmfao]

@TheAvatarState Yeah if I do try anything then I guess I should go low doses.

[Highest]

Psychedelics experiences and psychosis are the same thing.

[MsNobody]

Like @TheAvatarState said they can unlock schizophrenia only if you have a predisposition for it, they don't "cause" it or increase the risk of mental illness, the thing with psychedelics is that the more grounded you are the easier it's to use them, so the more work you do on yourself, meditation, contemplation etc the safer you are gonna feel to explore your mind, cause they really shake the foundations of our ordinary reality. 

Not sure if you watched Bird box  but in the movie there is a woman and she is blindfolded, she needs to go somewhere and have no idea what's in front of her, in order to don't get lost she holds a piece of cord (that is attached to the boat) so she can go and come back to the same place she was, she uses the cord as a safety tool and it's just like that with psychedelics, if you don't know you true self, the foundation of who you truly are, there is nothing to come back to once you get lost in psychosis, mushrooms for example are really good at it, the more trapped you are in your ego, false self and false beliefs the easier it's to have a bad trip and get lost.  

I would start slowly, and keep in mind that schizophrenia is not considered a mental illness for many people, I have a cousin with schizophrenia and I try to see them as people who are more connected to truth, and like many say enlightenment is really insanity. 

[Forestluv]

My understanding is that there is uncertainty about increased risk factors regarding family and personal history of psychosis. As well, the frontal lobe of the brain is still developing until one's early 20s. I would be super cautious and might try micro-dosing. (1/20 to 1/10 of a full dose. 5ug to 10ug). Micro-dosing is below threshold and can give a boost to creativity and insights.

[lmfao]

@MsNobody Yeah I've seen bird box, it was decent. Yeah the more grounded you are the better, small doses ftw. 

@Serotoninluv Thanks for the advice. I'd probably wait till I'm 25 or something till I do anything serious. Microdosing sounds nice. 

 

[outlandish]

16 minutes ago, lmfao said:

 

@Serotoninluv Thanks for the advice. I'd probably wait till I'm 25 or something till I do anything serious. Microdosing sounds nice.

Waiting until you're 25 strikes me as an excellent plan given your family history, and the uncertainty around psychedelics' interaction with genetic risk factors for mental illness. There's really no rush. ?And like everyone is saying, if you do decide to get into it, proceed in small steps, and check in honestly with yourself along the way.

On a population scale, psychedelic users show a higher degree of mental health than non-users - this is shown in controlled studies. I think it's because psychedelics tend to point people in the right direction, face their shit, grow up and so on. Kind of like low-budget, hyper-effective, self directed psychotherapy.

However, there is a pretty strong possibility that psychedelics don't play well with schizophrenia and psychosis prone minds.

[AlwaysBeNice]

Ultimately, no one can really say if it's a good idea or not, you should try to guess that for yourself. 

Even no one really knows what schizophrenia is, and in my view it can be different things.

Namely,

1. ego projection/neurotic fears, dysfunctional/dishonest thinking/behavior (from trauma, or just frustration with life)

2. Sensing things that other people might not sense (and using that information confusedly, dishonestly or unskillfully, due to point 1).

And actually in my view is most always a combination.

- But schizophrenia is a mental habit ultimately, you can recover from it with the right wisdom, practice, help.

But you can call psychedelics forced openings, and that isn't always so useful, I think especially in an already pretty hectic western society, for sensitive individuals, and you can easily get good results with committed meditation anyways, but it's no danger ultimately, but still.

Also, you really do already have a psychedelic trip every night, especially the first 1 or 2 dreams after deep sleep, and you can become conscious thereof.

[Salvijus]

It's not a myth. 

I lived in netherlands where people take drugs like water. I heard many stories were people ended up in asylum from LSD.

My vippassana teacher said the same thing when I asked him what he thinks of psychedelics.

My close friend recently started experimenting with psychedelics. I can't recognize him. He's nuts and paranoic. He thinks everyone is following him. He's having visions and hallusinations.

I myself tried AL-lad and i was able to see blue color on white ceilings. Now i can do that without any drugs. Thank god i didn't see some weird LSD hallusinations where I see demons. Imagine if I had to experience hallusinations everyday now. No thank you.

Benefits of taking psychedelics - 0 except for potential emotional release

Risk for damage - 100. Even if you don't become crazy. You'll still pay the price somewhere. Something will brake inside.

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Salvijus

[Enlightenment]

 

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Benefits of taking psychedelics - 0 except for potential emotional release

Risk for damage - 100. Even if you don't become crazy. You'll still pay the price somewhere. Something will brake inside.

There are benefits and risks involved, yet those numbers are way off. It's inconsistent with many population studies that have examined benefit and harm.

[Outer]

When scientists gave schizophrenics psychedelics it made them weird, but high dose amphetamines exacerbated their symptoms.  I'd never use psychedelics if I had a family history of schizophrenia. The same with weed. I think any type of trauma or stress puts you at risk for "unlocking" schizophrenia. Especially in your 20's.  Psychedelics can be very traumatic, anxiety-provoking, during the experience, but with positive effects long-term for otherwise healthy users. That's why I think working working with your current traumas and building ways of coping with future ones and stressors in healthy ways is a better idea. Psychedelics can be a medicine yes, but there are also other medicines out there. Spiritual bypassing is a thing. And psychedelics isn't an all-cure panacea. Studies done on people have a very careful selection process, they exclude people who do have family history of schizophrenia or psychosis. It might be worth your time to look into how to prevent schizophrenia, maybe something like serious exercise can help with that for instance. The nootropics subreddit can be helpful with that.

If you become schizophrenic or psychotic that is not only putting you further from the truth but it also limits your options for growth - like using psychedelics or other spiritual practices. You might start excluding things that make you feel well like coffee after a psychotic episode. So you spiral into higher neuroticism which makes you more prone to be unable to deal with traumas and other stressors.

If the enlightened state is like the flow state, but higher, why on earth would the psychotic state be in any shape familiar? The studies scoring people on mysticism had non-duals at the highest score, while psychotics were like half below that. The known flow state is like the reverse psychotic state. You are smart, alert, calm, relaxed, attentive.

 

[Outer]

Micro-dosing is a terrible idea for someone predisposed to schizophrenia in my opinion, at least everyday. Psychedelics don't work except in higher dosages. That's proven with all the studies. Low dosages did nothing, except make you feel different, that's why it was used as placebo. Even 2 g of shrooms didn't do anything, it was only at around 4 g that the beneficial effects occurred. Because that's when mystical experiences were triggered with all of the religious and classical music and the setting. There were no benefits without the mystical experience. Which is basically a non-dual experience with positive emotions. Neuroscientist Carhart-Harris said in his AMA he was worried that microdosing would put people out of touch with reality in their day to day life. Of course some might think this is good, but generally if someone says that they mean it in a way which is negative. Not like tree-hugging out of touch of the current order. People also use it as ways to become "more productive", like Silicon Valley-types, or like a nootropic.

Gwern did a LSD microdosing RCT on himself and it had no effect. That is basically controlling for the placebo effect. Even Fadiman commented on it.

https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing

There is a new self-blinding microdosing study for people to join if they wish:

https://selfblinding-microdose.org/

The science isn't there... imo. But it seems some are helped with it.

 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Outer said:

Psychedelics don't work except in higher dosages. That's proven with all the studies. Low dosages did nothing, except make you feel different, that's why it was used as placebo. Even 2 g of shrooms didn't do anything, it was only at around 4 g that the beneficial effects occurred. Because that's when mystical experiences were triggered with all of the religious and classical music and the setting. There were no benefits without the mystical experience. Which is basically a non-dual experience with positive emotions. Neuroscientist Carhart-Harris said in his AMA he was worried that microdosing would put people out of touch with reality in their day to day life. Of course some might think this is good, but generally if someone says that they mean it in a way which is negative. Not like tree-hugging out of touch of the current order. People also use it as ways to become "more productive", like Silicon Valley-types, or like a nootropic.

Microdosing has an effect for a lot of people, myself included. Microdosing is like steroids for high green to yellow individuals. I lose the ability to do detailed analysis, yet my capacity for creativity, big picture thinking, integration, abstract thinking etc. is greatly enhanced on microdoses.

Your description of psychedelic benefits and experience doesn't sound like you have used them much. 

[Outer]

30 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Microdosing has an effect for a lot of people, myself included. Microdosing is like steroids for high green to yellow individuals. I lose the ability to do detailed analysis, yet my capacity for creativity, big picture thinking, integration, abstract thinking etc. is greatly enhanced on microdoses.

Your description of psychedelic benefits and experience doesn't sound like you have used them much. 

That is interesting, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone since it is an anecdote. Placebo is actually a real effect and whether microdosing beats placebo is under investigation. The only placebo-controlled micro-dosing anecdote I know of is from gwern, and it had no effect on him. But I'm sure you know all of this already. For a healthy artist for instance, that doesn't have schizophrenia or psychosis in their family, there isn't really that many negatives in trying a microdose. But I'm not sure why, since there isn't any evidence outside of anecdote supporting its use.

 

 

[outlandish]

4 minutes ago, Outer said:

Placebo is actually a real effect and whether microdosing beats placebo is under investigation. 

What do you mean "beats"? What criteria are they looking at?

[Forestluv]

@Outer I’m confident I could tell the difference between placebo and a 10ug micro-dose. Yet I have a lot of experience and in tune with mind-body sensations. 

Micro, mini, standard, heavy and heroic doses all have diiferent effects. I’ve done them all.

I could see how novices might have a strong placebo effect and those controls are necessary in micro-dose experiments. As well, individual sensitivities vary.

[Outer]

15 minutes ago, outlandish said:

What do you mean "beats"? What criteria are they looking at?

Basically placebo is a positive effect you will have for no reason, even if you know you are taking a placebo pill it will have a positive effect. If you have a negative effect for no reason, from taking a sugar pill, it is called nocebo, which is more common in people with low dopamine levels. Since all substances are subject to placebo, its important that your substance is better than placebo.

The self-blinding manual says they are doing pre- and post-dosing surveys. During dosing they are doing questionnaires and tests on mood, and cognition.

p. 12. https://selfblinding-microdose.org/self-blinding_manual_BLOTTER_v1.6a.pdf

[Gabriel Antonio]

Psychedelics don’t cause paranoia. Instead, they can trigger it. 

 

6 hours ago, lmfao said:

Yeah if I do try anything then I guess I should go low doses.

Certainly. Good job for doing your research. Psychedelics are not toys. 

Whatever you do, remember that there are other routes... many people fall into trap of thinking that psychedelics are the ultimate solution for life’s problems. However, they can easily make people fall into delusion.

Anyway, remember that there are other tools you can use.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Gabriel Antonio