The correct time and place to discuss no free will?

[TheAvatarState]

I see a A LOT of comments and posts on every subforum bringing up no free will. And the Truth is that there's no free will... No one's in control!

However, this brings up so much confusion and fear for many people. It doesn't make sense to bring it up in matters of relative, practical self help. Nonetheless, it is the Truth. How do we reconcile this? On one hand, we are all here to pursue Truth for Truth's sake, no matter the cost. But on the other hand, we're here to assist others in becoming their greatest versions, which inherently gives rise to matters of choice. Is it not helpful and hopeful, especially for beginners, to think of the world in terms of choices? 

I'm not really sure about this, so I was hoping to start a discussion on this topic. 

[SoonHei]

a similar thread also started about 7 hours prior

 

 

and in terms of no free will vs a free will

it's all about which perspective you see it from

 

there is only "apparent free will"

and yes, as you said, in truth, there is no free will

free will is something which an individual separate entity may have

but there is no individual separate entity

so there can be no free will

 

[TheAvatarState]

@SoonHei this is a completely different thread with a completely different question. I'm asking how we reconcile this when talking with others at varying stages of development. It's a Truth that feels self-defeating when in the domain of practical self help advice. And yet, it is the ultimate liberating Truth, but only to those who fully understand it. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

[SoonHei]

@TheAvatarState hmmm, yes i do understand now what you meant...

as this is ultimately a teaching... and like most teachings, there is a time when it applies and there will come a time when it also must be let go off...

 

so to a beginner, it should not be something they should focus on...

common response being, "okay, so i will just sit and do nothing... i am not doing anything anyways... i am not in control"

 

also. with this truth (like many other truths)  once it is fully understood, it should bring about the end of seeking

 

i really liked an example @winterknight wrote 

"I know I'm sitting here on the couch watching the movie. I'm not in the movie. But there are still a few things I want to get clear... 

like what I should do when I face that movie villain."

 

if one truly did understand that they are not the character who has apparent free will - then they would not have the follow up question

the follow up question confirms that the questioner has taken the teaching as a concept only.

 

 

[Robi Steel]

@TheAvatarState The most important thing is, that you yourself experience the full, raw, unfiltered truth as a first. Forget about anything else. You will realise that you are them, right? First, put yourself in that position of complete freedom. Break first the border between you and them, only then can you truly help them. Only then you know what they need. 

Only when it doesnt matter and there nothing to do, should you worry about other beginners and advancing them. 

[Consilience]

Ive come to realize there’s both no free will and no no free will simultaneously. Reality transcends both of these dualities in a weird strange loop type of way.... it doesnt make sense nor could I explain it except by saying don’t get caught in the no free will mentality. But equally, dont get caught in the free will mentality either. 

[Shin]

In a lucid dream, when there is no ego it both feels there is free will and not.

It is so free that the concept of free will collapse on itself.

It is impossible to convey in words or to understand as a concepts.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Shin

[TheAvatarState]

54 minutes ago, Shin said:

In a lucid dream, when there is no ego it both feels there is free will and not.

It is so free that the concept of free will collapse on itself.

It is impossible to convey in words or to understand as a concepts.

 

You have an ego in a lucid dream... But it actually is possible to convey that free will is a completely untenable notion. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because it implies there is an output with no input. That simple. The ego is the only entity that thinks it has free will, because that's what gives it relevance and power. In light of nondual understanding, free will dissolves and so does the self... Which is your death. 

That's why this understanding is so touchy and problematic. 

[Shin]

2 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

You have an ego in a lucid dream... But it actually is possible to convey that free will is a completely untenable notion. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because it implies there is an output with no input. That simple. The ego is the only entity that thinks it has free will, because that's what gives it relevance and power. In light of nondual understanding, free will dissolves and so does the self... Which is your death. 

That's why this understanding is so touchy and problematic. 

It feels very different than the waking dream.

In a lucid dream, I'm watching an ego or several have experiences, but I'm way back in there, and also completely incorporated in the experience.

[TheAvatarState]

25 minutes ago, Shin said:

It feels very different than the waking dream.

In a lucid dream, I'm watching an ego or several have experiences, but I'm way back in there, and also completely incorporated in the experience.

I understand how it might feel different, but how could it possibly be different in actuality?

[Shin]

31 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

I understand how it might feel different, but how could it possibly be different in actuality?

Well it does, I don't understant what you're asking ?

[TheAvatarState]

1 minute ago, Shin said:

Well it does, I don't understant what you're asking ?

Likewise, I don't understand what you're saying either ???. Can we back up to the beginning? What is so different about a lucid dream than the waking dream?

[Shin]

30 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

Likewise, I don't understand what you're saying either ???. Can we back up to the beginning? What is so different about a lucid dream than the waking dream?

The notion of free will doesn't exist.

[Forestluv]

I would say a good time to explore no free will is once a mind has reached the "observer + object" stage. Before this, the mind is immersed within egoic and will resist, intellectualize and debate. This can be counter-productive as it can reinforce an ego's delusion of free will. This is one of the most threatening realizations to the ego along the development path. 

Once at the "observer + object" stage, the realization process is simple - yet can be uncomfortable and it can take some time to loosen attachments and identifications. The no free will realization is extremely threatening to an ego and is the doorway to entering deeper levels. . . One simply needs to observe their thoughts from a detached observer center of consciousness. Then observe "from where did the thought arise"? . . . It won't take long to see that thoughts arise from some mysterious ether. Simply put "I am not the author of my thoughts". 

Once the ego surrenders to it not being the author of it's thoughts, it will retreat and regroup it's army and hunker down in the "I am the chooser" defensive posture. That is: "Well, I might not be writing my thoughts, but I am choosing between thoughts. For example, during meditation thoughts may arise whether or not I should check the timer to see how much time is left. Some thoughts say "check the timer" other thoughts say "don't check the timer". I get to choose whether I check the timer or not". . . Ime, the "no chooser" realization was quite challenging. I spent a lot of time meditating, observing and searching for a "chooser". It took a while before my mind became exhausted and surrendered to actuality that there is no chooser.

It's common to have partial realizations with the ego later trying to regain control. This would pop up over and over along my path. A sneaky ego reclaiming authorship of thoughts and being a chooser.

Ime, I couldn't develop into deeper realms without the above two realizations. On the SD scale, this would be evolving from tier 1 to tier 2. Regarding Yellow, most people focus on the intellectual developmental line of Yellow and neglect the spiritual developmental line to Yellow. Awareness of the delusional nature of egoic free will and an egoic chooser is super important for spiritual Yellow, imo. And it is a necessity for Turquoise.

However. . . once Turquoise is reached, a new form of Free Will is revealed. Yet, it is a trans-egoic manifestation of Free Will and, ime, a mind cannot explore this realm through direct experience without the embodiment of the above two egoic realizations.

26 minutes ago, Shin said:

The notion of free will doesn't exist.

A psychological dynamic of egoic free will exists. It is the interpretation of it that is delusional. Similar to a mirage in a desert. The mirage exists, yet not how the mind thinks it exists.

[Chives99]

depends if they want to listen

[TheAvatarState]

2 hours ago, Shin said:

The notion of free will doesn't exist.

I believe the notion of free will doesn't exist in either, is that what you're saying?

[TheAvatarState]

@Serotoninluv very thorough, thank you!

Would you say this trans-egoic experience of free will is like a trans-rational mode of being? In your experience, is this turquoise level of experiential free will illusory (relative) or absolute? Or does the answer not make any sense in this context?

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, TheAvatarState said:

@Serotoninluv very thorough, thank you!

Would you say this trans-egoic experience of free will is like a trans-rational mode of being? In your experience, is this turquoise level of experiential free will illusory (relative) or absolute? Or does the answer not make any sense in this context?

The two are inter-related. My impression is that you have had direct experience with both trans-egoic and trans-rational conscious states.

From an egoic state of consciousness, the underlying energy of "will" is driven primarily to satisfy needs and self survival. There is an energetic shift of "will" at a trans-egoic state. Have you experienced a state of consciousness in which the personality is within a more expansive consciousness? Or the personal consciousness dissolves and there is a higher consciousness? Perhaps a sense of collective consciousness or "oneness" - in which the center of consciousness is no longer perceived as a contracted personal consciousness restricted within the brain? At first, this freaked me out and caused anxiety and panic. I had no idea what "it" might do to "me". Yet, with time and experience it becomes normalized. 

Once one reaches tier 2 various levels of relativity is revealed. For example, imagine you are at a concert dancing in a crowed area and "lose yourself". The crowd becomes this giant amoeba and the center of consciousness is this collective consciousness - the amoeba. Is that absolute or relative? Well, the individual human consciousness has dissolved, so it isn't relative in that sense. Yet at a higher level, isn't the amoeba relative? It's just one little old collective consciousness - there are countless other collective consciousnesses occuring. So, it is just one relative collective conscious. 

So, the fun part. . . does that collective amoeba have a free will? As you asked. . . is this free will illusory? I don't know. That is what I am currently exploring - similar to how I explored the nature of an egoic free will years ago. 

At the absolute level, perhaps there is one infinite intelligence and one will. Yet, that is beyond my understanding. In the strictest sense, the absolute is everything, so it cannot be referred to as any thing. Yet, in a sense that is a cop-out answer. A more honest answer is I don't know. 

Absolute and relative is a bimodal categorization. It's super helpful, yet we can add distinctions if we want to go that route. For example, I like to think of nonduality as a series of layers. The amoeba example I gave above is a form of nonduality - individual egos dissolve and a collective ego is revealed. Yet, it is not the ultimate oneness, nothingness, emptiness of nonduality. When I saw things as either dual or nondual, I was missing out on a lot of stuff that is an integration between the two.

[TheAvatarState]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Have you experienced a state of consciousness in which the personality is within a more expansive consciousness? Or the personal consciousness dissolves and there is a higher consciousness? Perhaps a sense of collective consciousness or "oneness" - in which the center of consciousness is no longer perceived as a contracted personal consciousness restricted within the brain?

Yes, many times. The first few times on psychedelics, but that opened me up enough to where I have felt this a lot while sober. For instance, I had the pleasure of going to a Halloween ball at COSM (Alex Grey's estate in upstate NY), and the sense of collective consciousness blew me away! The best I can describe it is it's like I'm tripping but I'm not.  My conditioning of consciousness happening in my "brain" is looooong gone, and yeah, it was quite scary the first few times.

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Once one reaches tier 2 various levels of relativity is revealed. For example, imagine you are at a concert dancing in a crowed area and "lose yourself". The crowd becomes this giant amoeba and the center of consciousness is this collective consciousness - the amoeba. Is that absolute or relative?

I really resonate with this. It is a relative, collective consciousness. I like to think of collective ego and collective consciousness as a system. Any system within the larger system of Universal Mind is relative.

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

So, the fun part. . . does that collective amoeba have a free will? As you asked. . . is this free will illusory? I don't know. That is what I am currently exploring - similar to how I explored the nature of an egoic free will years ago. 

My take on it is that if on the individual level we have no free will, that means a system made up of many individuals also can't have free will. It may SEEM to have a "will" of its own because it is much more complex than any one person, but it is fundamentally just a collection of things operating at a higher level. There is still no reason to believe there's an output with no input. There is no "chooser," it's just an infinitely causal system. Whatever the universe can do, a human can do by rule, and vice versa, whatever the individual is governed by, a larger system must also adhere to. Adding more complexity does not create extra superpowers... at least that's my current knowledge of systems.

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

When I saw things as either dual or nondual, I was missing out on a lot of stuff that is an integration between the two.

That's a great point. Dual and nondual are just distinctions to help us understand, and that can be helpful, but at the highest level EVERYTHING is nondual. I think that understanding the holographic nature of reality is helpful. You can cut off the tiniest piece of infinity, and it will still reflect the whole image. With that in mind, I think that no matter if we're talking about an individual consciousness, an amoeba consciousness, or the Absolute consciousness, it is all the same. Which is why everything can be found within.