A Rant Against Science and Religion

[ivankiss]

@Leo Gura I am displaying genuine understanding 

Belief is not understanding, for sure. But one cannot understand something without imagining it first. One cannot manifest an idea or an experience of it without belief. Understanding might not even be necessary. 

Sometimes ideas manifest out of thin air. It's pure magic 

Will contemplate understanding deeper tho. Thanks!

@ajasatya I like Tesla. In fact, I was partially inspired by one of his quotes when writing this thread. Not such a big fan of Einstein tho. For no real reason.

Personally, don't have anything against science or scientists. Would very much like to see science transform and evolve. 

Just spreadin' some awareness; expressing some thoughts 

[lmfao]

@ivankiss

7 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Science creates limitations unconsciously and tries to transcend those while still asleep to the source of it's questioning.

Science literally imagines problems and solves them with imaginary solutions. Creating a story. A belief system. Which is then accepted by others.

It is so ridiculous that Science is being so highly appreciated and so widely accepted. It's literally trying to describe reality by looking straight away from it. Being completely blind to it. Science is all about stories and beliefs. Yup. It is also all about the exploration of those beliefs and stories. A great amount of resources invested in these explorations, yes? Indeed. 

But again; what one believes one will have the experience of; in some way or fashion. Sooner or later. One will create the experience of the belief, the idea. It's just how illusion is. How reality really is.

Sooner or later an imagionary problem will find it's imaginary solution. Be it mathematical, physical, biological, chemical, geographical, historical, archeological, philosophical, or any other really.

All pure imagination and the exploration of it. Fundamentally based on beliefs and ideas. Delusion; unaware of itself.

 

Evidence is imaginary. Implies the presence of dormant expressions, such as; doubt, cinicism and scepticism. There is no need for any evidence of that which is obvious;

Consciousness.

For a philosopher it should be easy to see that any statement made about reality is based upon a bunch of unprovable axioms and assumptions about reality and this very sentence itself falls into that category of statements. One perspective to take on this is that mathematicians agree on a set of axioms with each other in order to construct the language with which they communicate. Godels Incompleteness theorem aside, after looking at a proof or formula in maths closely enough I'll think "of course this is true, it could have been no other way with our presuppositions. This formula in its entirety is an expression of previously established axioms, it's just expressed in a way which was unfamiliar to me". If we are to have a complete understanding of mathematics, Fermat's Last Theorem is no more surprising then the truth 2+2=4. The construction of axioms is no joke, and it goes as deep as you want it to. I believe there were two mathematicians who wrote 300 pages worth of concepts before justifying the statement "1+1=2".

There's also a point which only people who've had some form mystical experience can get a sense of. All our statements are words. Its an obvious thing to realise that words are (just) words but we forget about the implications of such an obvious things. Words are just things popping up in the present moment. The explanations of words I give are just more words. Words don't actually "mean" anything beyond their raw form in consciousness. If I tell you that the word "tree" is just a sound and is literally not a tree that we see in the real world, most people will say "of course" but we forget this.

The ideas that there exists good science, bad science, that science works, that we've accurately predicted eclipses, accurately predicted events in the external world, that planes fly and etc are just thoughts and words. Just because we do consciousness work doesn't mean you cant operate in day to day life as if science is real. I don't suppose enlightened people stop talking and spewing out words all together from their mouths just because many people confuse thought stories with actuality. You can have all sorts of thoughts and perform all sorts of actions whilst in a state of stillness. Enlightened people will still act as if cause and effect exists, if that's what God decides to do. 

At ground level zero levels of consciousness there's just    ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍    ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍    ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍      ‍     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Edited February 10, 2019 by lmfao

[ajasatya]

Just now, ivankiss said:

Would very much like to see science transform and evolve

it happens everyday. what people usually overlook is the fact that science cannot be done without the scientific method. the rigorousness of the scientific method is what makes science so grounded and effective.

science is a method to model the behavior of reality within a certain degree of accuracy. it's nothing more than this. it has never been and it never will be. a scientific experiment must have clear and public results, so to speak. it must be reproducible and must not depend on subjectivity. scientists who step out of these requirements are not really doing science.

lots of people do think of science as another religion. those are not scientists either.

[Leo Gura]

The question of What is science? and Why does it work? is a very deep mystery. One worth seriously contemplating. I have resolved many question about existence for myself, and I have studied the foundations of science for over decade, but I have not yet resolved that one.

What is understanding? How can we understand understanding?

Genuine insight is a very real thing. Enlightenment is a genuine understanding of the structure of existence. So in a sense, enlightenment is a kind of science.

Likewise, one can have a genuine insight into how to build an airplane or how to cure a disease or how to solve a differential equation. Which is different from pure fantasy.

[ivankiss]

@Leo Gura Had a brief contemplation today. Here's what I got;

Understanding is illusion. Still imagination. There is nothing to understand, really. It is merely a matter of being conscious or unconscious. Knowledge is illusion, too. Consciousness is infinitely intelligent. Always, in the present moment. Nowhere else. No need for any understanding. But there sure is a possibility of understanding to be imagined; experienced.

The unconscious imagines ideas. Ideas can be reinforced. Thoughts stick together. One can build and stack them in a hierarchical manner. Glue them all together with belief. That way they appear to be making logical sense. But logic is imagination, as well. There's nothing logical about logic, really.

One only has the illusion of understanding something. One can choose to imagine possibilities of how the idea or the understanding can become even further expressed; manifested. Once manifested; ta data! Evidence! Confirmation. We indeed do understand this, don't we? 

Right?

Wrong.

All imagination. All magic. All Consciousness. No real need for any understanding or knowledge. Those are man-made as well. Imagined. 

Consciousness is a shape-shifter. Limitless. It plays with itself and itself only. It is capable of playing dumb, falling asleep, imagining, dreaming. But it is not capable of being anything else than consciousness. 

That is how science is possible. Sheer imagination working its magic. It's flawless on its own. Needs no human to describe it's perfection or desperately try to understand it.

Consciousness is simply conscious. As perfect and complete as it can get. 

But I don't really understand how. And have no real need to know. There's something valuable in not knowing.

[Aquarius]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

The most remarkable thing about science is that despite it being a human invention, it works!

How is that possible?

Careful observation? Cyclicity? 

I am unable to believe anything that lacks these two components.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Aquarius

[Nahm]

You can know being, by not knowing a thing. You can love being, by not loving a thing. You can understand being, by not understanding a thing.  

[Aakash]

16 hours ago, ivankiss said:

What kinds of understanding?

concepts make concepts work and thats why science works

for example its because we have the concept of time 

that were able to have the concept of velocity and things moving. 

but these concepts are as real as real can be 

the biggest concept that makes all these concepts work in reality is the concept that "this is physical object , a solid" 

it is a physical object with these properties , but its reality is consciousness MIND creating an illusion.

( the mind which we call illusion, is not the same mind that mind creates illusion) , in infinity the object itself is illusion, to us thought is somewhat an illusion , so the scale of illusion can not be compared or contrast. you can believe illusion but you haven't really seen ILLUSION.

itself is an illusion of difference by comparing and contrasting 

i.e gas to liquid, liquid to solid,

its comparison that creates points of references 

and assumptions that allow for the creation of theories that work in practice. 

so the laws of physics and science WORK but they are just another creation in the giant mind that is reality. they are illusions and so you are right aswell lol. 

Edited February 10, 2019 by Aakash

[Aakash]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What is understanding? How can we understand understanding?

there are two worlds so to speak from my experience 

one world is the real world where consciousness meets consciousness 

the other world is the world of imagination 

where consciousness allows for interpretation and understanding 

this world is imaginary within the consciousness on consciousness realm itself, it allows for all things to happen 

but ultimately when deciding which one is the real true world 

the world of consciousness is all there is, so consciousness is consciousness without any interpretation is the real raw reality 

so in a world where we understand murder can exsist, then theres the reality where the illusion of a murder was carried out but its really awareness being aware of itself to no end.

[Forestluv]

You do science everday. Even simple things like figuring out why your coffee maker isn’t working uses the scientific method. 

Hmmm, the “on switch is on”, so it’s not that. Maybe it’s unplugged. Ah yes, it’s unplugged. Let’s plug it in and see if it works. Voila! It works now. . . That’s science.

Spirituality is filled with science. Try out yoga and see if it resonates with you. If not, try something else. . . Exploration involves science. 

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura Because science can better predict the belief system of the mind. If it makes a prediction, then it knows what beliefs the mind will have next. As for how it can predict the belief system, I’m not too sure about that. But it does it nonetheless.

It doesn’t make science any more real.

[Aakash]

@How to be wise i'm not gonna lie to you, the you don't know how is the core of science , the actual bit you need to understand lol. science is predicated upon pure assumption just like any subject in the world. any subject you know about its fundamentals or pillars of structure has assumptions made about reality. 

they try to box reality and thats how they are able to create truths, the truths work in their domain of their given subject but if the same object is different within two different feilds the whole system collapses and thats why you get lawyers who are able to define humans in the court of law via different definitions. did you know in the dictionary there are 514 different defintions of humans and you can legally use them to fight your case. thats how these assumptions are truthed. 

[ivankiss]

@Serotoninluv nope, pretty sure that's all Consciousness 

Which is infinitely intelligent.

The intelligence playing itself out while I am plugging the coffee maker in can be labeled as science, buy that's not actuality. In actuality it's all Consciousness being infinitely intelligent and cool 

Again; nothing against science. I find it exciting. But science is not aware of itself nor is it aware of what the hell it's really doing. It's exploring ideas; imagination. There are no real revelations or achievements. And science is blind to this. Or so it seems.

Ultimately; everything is perfect as it is. Including both science and religion. 

However, expressions will express; thoughts will think. 

No harm. Just fun and expansion.

[Forestluv]

@ivankiss . It seems like you are trying to step outside of science and objectively evaluate it as if it was a seperate “thing”. 

Once you go nondual and claim it’s all One, then everything is science and nothing is science. Once you claim “that is science”, then that is introducing a dinstinction and duality. Then, one enters relative storytelling. There is also an integrated nondual/dual perspective, yet I don’t get the sense of that presence here. 

[ivankiss]

@Serotoninluv I do not claim I fully integrated duality and nonduality. Nor do I aim to do that anytime soon, really.

The integration is constant. Continuous. 

I too am an explorer of Consciousness. Just like science is. 

But there is a great difference between conscious and unconscious imagination and the exploration of it. 

Or there absolutely is no difference at all. 

Look at it as you wish.

I don't do science. I am conscious. I explore consciousness; myself. Express myself. While I am conscious of myself. Why? Because I am awake, finally.

Still getting used the shift; but it's rather natural, really. There is no one driving the vehicle.

I am just letting through what wants to go through.

Peace.

Edited February 10, 2019 by ivankiss

[Forestluv]

@ivankiss Without science, it is a nondual mode of being in which everything is also science. There would be no distinction between “science” and “non-science”.

From a nondual perspective, the claim “I don’t do science” is the same as saying “I do nothing” and “I do everything”. As the infinite, You are everything. You are all the scientists conducting experiments in laboratories right now.

From a dual perspective the claim “I don’t do science” introduces a distinction and would need a very creative relative definition of “science”. 

It would be like saying “I don’t do breathing”. From a relative dual perspective, that would need a very creative definition of the word “breathing”. 

 

 

[ivankiss]

@Serotoninluv Yup. 

But what makes you assume I am not conscious of all that?

I am doing precisely nothing, yes. Nobody is doing anything. And everybody is doing everything. Including Ivan ranting on how unconscious science is.

Consciousness is all things. All scientists, all priests, all monks. 

And also Ivan who is expressing himself. More precisely consciousness is expressing itself through Ivan. Exploring and experiencing itself. While it's conscious of itself.

No science. No doing. No breathing.

Consciousness being conscious.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, ivankiss said:

@Serotoninluv Yup. 

But what makes you assume I am not conscious of all that?

Generally with embodiment, there would be a dissolution of attachment and identification with “the rant against science” introduced in this thread. 

It would be no different than saying “a rant against bird chirps” or a “rant against gablish”.

To me, I get the sense there is more theory than embodiment here. There seems to be claims with atrachment and identification. 

Would you be equally as comfortable making the opposite claim for every claim you made in this thread? And would you be equally genuine with those opposite claims?

If you are conscious of this, observe the underlying motivation for starting a dualistic thread, taking one side of the dualism and then bypassing with nondualism.

It’s like you invited me to play a game of baseball and each time you pitch the ball, you evaporate the ball into nothingness right before I swing. Then, you stand on the mound pointing out that I missed the ball and that you are aware the ball evaporated. I’m assiming you aren’t conscious of this dynamic because that would be an ingenuine game and most minds are unconscious of their own ingenuine games they play.

[electroBeam]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@ivankiss So here's a riddle for you: how is it possible that science is able to manipulate "reality" so effectively despite the fact that it is stories and imagination?

What differentiates science from pure fiction?

here's a riddle for you: how is it possible that a chess pawn is able to take a horse in the right conditions, if the pawn is just a symbol/story/imagination? Like how can an imaginary character (like a pawn) destroy a character like a horse? Its not like we made it up, we didn't just say 'ok im changing the rules, the pawn can now move anywhere, Bingo! there goes your horse!" No! We agreed upon a set of rule prior to the pawn taking the horse, and then throughout the game, it actually took the horse without us changing the rules or making anything up! We did it by following the rules! Wow! 

but isn't it possible because that's the rule we've agreed upon in the first place?

 

So how does science manipulate reality so well?

Well reality is a set of rules we've agreed upon, and we agreed upon them at birth or close to it. A light turning off and on isn't something Absolutely true, its a rule we agreed upon. We chose to understand reality in that way, we are assigning the beliefs of 'light', 'switch' 'turning off and on' ourselves, reality isn't that way fundamentally.

And then you ask the question, how can science manipulate that switch that well! But, you gotta remember, we are the ones who made that rule, we are the ones who understand it that way, so is it really surprising that if we play by the rules of science and mathematics, we can make a rule (which we accepted and developed at birth) happen in the future, just like the pawn and the horse?

[electroBeam]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The question of What is science? and Why does it work? is a very deep mystery. One worth seriously contemplating. I have resolved many question about existence for myself, and I have studied the foundations of science for over decade, but I have not yet resolved that one.

What is understanding? How can we understand understanding?

Genuine insight is a very real thing. Enlightenment is a genuine understanding of the structure of existence. So in a sense, enlightenment is a kind of science.

Likewise, one can have a genuine insight into how to build an airplane or how to cure a disease or how to solve a differential equation. Which is different from pure fantasy.

Are you talking about modern day science, like western science, or science in general? Science can also mean yoga, contemplation, zen, etc?

understanding and science are 2 different things. Its possible to understand without science. You can develop a very genuine insight about how to defeat an opponent in League of Legends, yet this insight is about a fantasy land called league of legends, not 'reality'. BUT the insight is just as genuine here as it is for the insight to make an aeroplane fly. Both require a taste of consciousness-intelligence(the thing in your intelligence video/philosophical nirvana).

 

Reality is Maya, and Maya is illusion BUT that illusion is deeply intelligent. The devil/illusion/Maya is filled with deeply mysterious and intelligent patterns, each capable of being understood through insight. Most people seeking enlightenment ignore these patterns and just dig straight through Maya to get to god, but they miss that Maya wreaks of consciousness-intelligence. And just observing this is enough for an awakening. If you dig through thoughts to ordinary nirvana, you will get to consciousness in the form of everything-nothing, but if you understand deeply the patterns in Maya, you will get to consciousness in the form of intelligence, yet these 2 things are actually equal to each other.

 

What is your answer as of now, to that question you posted?

Isn't the answer to this question deeply related to your intelligence video?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by electroBeam