Rational approach to non-duality

[Krisena]

I watched the videos that try to explain non-duality to rational-minded people. Forgive me for being candid, but as a rational-minded person myself, I didn't find those at all satisfying. I felt rather that I was listening to someone who knew what they were talking about, but whose language I didn't understand. Bridging the gap between systems of understanding is never easy. Now, I have never experienced non-duality, that much is certain, and it was for that reason I sought out those videos. Still, as far as a rational conceptualization goes, I don't think it would be too hard to lead someone to a logical acknowledgement of it, at the very least.

With the caveat that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

The boundaries we percieve between things are mostly semantic and mostly drawn for practical purposes. We draw distinctions between things to communicate effectively with each other. When we refer to a tree, for example talking about a Christmas tree, we do not stop to ponder the distinction between the stem and leaves, between the branches and the roots. What matters is the idea of a tree as a whole. In other contexts however, we do draw the distinction between leaves and the rest of the tree, for example talking about how the leaves fall to the ground when autumn comes. Similarily, when we talk about the dangers of the forest, we do not care about the individual trees and the distinction between them. We draw boundaries between things as boundaries between things become necessary for us to percieve and communicate.

At the same time, we acknowledge physical laws. As far as we know, the universe behaves mechanistically and predictably. When a rock tumbles down a hill and collides with a second rock, that rock is set in motion. When someone with a particular personality style feels insecure, they may withdraw to test the loyalty of another person. That other person with another particular personality style may react fearfully when the first person withdraws, and follows after them.

On a larger scale, when someone commits suicide, it causes pain in a whole range of individuals that were connected to that person. Those sorrowful individuals again cause unrest in their own social circles as they ventilate their feelings. In this way, we can see that actions cause ripples. In this way, we can see emotions as forces that propagate through individuals, almost as spirits that have a life of their own.

Abstracting up concepts like this, we can see the universe as consisting of forces that push and pull at each other, like yin and yang, and the universe becomes one big pond with different waves that cause ripples in it, however, we can abstract even higher.

Two boxers in a ring: one punches and the other dodges. Cause and effect, but their behavior is also connected. For everyday purposes, we draw a distinction between them, but we can just as easily remove the distinction if we want to. The two boxers are moving with each other as if they were one. If everything in the universe follows naturally from causes, then one can also imagine away these boundaries, and simply see everything as one.

If I were to interpret this through the lens of Spiral Dynamics, then I'd say stage Yellow is seeing all the phenomena in the universe as existing in system with each other, like in the example with the suicide, and stage Turquoise as being able to erase all the artificial boundaries between these systems, between cause and effect, and simply realizing that everything has always been moving as one, indeed, that everything is one.

I may not have experienced non-duality, but I can logically grasp that it is true, or at least logically grasp that it's a valid way of looking at the world. It's quite fascinating to look at reality with this in mind, but it requires considerable effort on my part, and I don't feel like I'm able to push through with the understanding into an actual experience of it. This is the same way I interpret Brahman in Hinduism. You can logically understand it, but to really get it, you have to reflect on the mystery until everything is integrated.

This is how I see the lay of the land, as someone who is only using logic to deduce my way forward, simply anticipating the revelation. Now feel free to criticize it.

[Joseph Maynor]

The first thing to understand is, what is your mind and what purpose does it serve?  It sounds so basic, but then again, it's these basics people miss on the Path.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

39 minutes ago, Krisena said:

I don't feel like I'm able to push through with the understanding into an actual experience of it. This is the same way I interpret Brahman in Hinduism. You can logically understand it, but to really get it, you have to reflect on the mystery until everything is integrated.

That will not be enough.

You're not appreciating the depth of the problem here.

You were never born. Logic, science, and cause & effect are total illusions.

Merely reflecting on this will not be enough. You must do an industrial-grade spiritual practice to change your state of consciousness because from your current state you are totally stuck, like a character in a video game world.

Or, psychedelics. That would be the fastest way to blow up your materialist logical paradigm.

Logically you can understand whatever you want, but when it comes to actually facing your own death, all logic will fly out the window. This is a profoundly personal matter for you. How willing are you to die to know the Truth? Because that is what we are talking about when we say nonduality.

[Shin]

Listen carefully,

He's not joking,

You're gonna die ?

[Forestluv]

4 hours ago, Krisena said:

I watched the videos that try to explain non-duality to rational-minded people. Forgive me for being candid, but as a rational-minded person myself, I didn't find those at all satisfying.

Of course. From a rational mindset, both the irrational and post-rational will appear similiar and be unsatisfying.

Imagine going to a circus to have a rational discussion on tax policies. Of course you would be unsatisfied. 

I often got frustrated during discussions in my Buddhist group. At times, I would get exasperated and ask “Can you please explain it in plain straightforward English?” Then someone would say “Well, it’s kinda like. . . “ and several others would start nodding their heads as if what he said made sense. 

[Nahm]

@Krisena What chance have you for clarity without first, brevity in your inquiries?

 

[now is forever]

@Krisena brahma can not be logically integrated as brahma holds everything that was and ever will be already from the beginning of time and creates itself out of itself out of pure nothingness. because brahma loves nothing and everything at the same time. brahma does not discern but holds discernment in itself and reveals discernment through itself.

[Consept]

But surely non-duality only an experiential knowing, for example I can hear all the descriptions of what its like to go to Thailand, i think that i know Thailand exists, i can imagine what it might be like drawing from other places ive been, but i can never know what its like until i experience it for myself and go there. Theres literally no way around this, i would have to experience it truly know it and even then its only the experience that is valid, even a memory of having been there will not do it justice. So if you can logically push your way through experienced Thailand then maybe you can do that non-duality but i doubt it somehow 

[Shin]

3 hours ago, Consept said:

But surely non-duality only an experiential knowing, for example I can hear all the descriptions of what its like to go to Thailand, i think that i know Thailand exists, i can imagine what it might be like drawing from other places ive been, but i can never know what its like until i experience it for myself and go there. Theres literally no way around this, i would have to experience it truly know it and even then its only the experience that is valid, even a memory of having been there will not do it justice. So if you can logically push your way through experienced Thailand then maybe you can do that non-duality but i doubt it somehow 

That's some spiritually gifted ego right there

[Krisena]

On 9.2.2019 at 10:47 PM, Consept said:

So if you can logically push your way through experienced Thailand then maybe you can do that non-duality but i doubt it somehow 

Oh yeah, it was never my intention to actually push through, and that's on me for not making clear. But if you want to start describing the concept to a rational-minded person, then this might be the way to start. That was the intention of the original video I watched after all.

I appreciate you guys' feedback. I'm glad I posted this so I could get correction.