how to become an enlightened master

[Jkris]

@Aakash what is a fetter? What are the 10 fetters? ?

[Aakash]

@Jkris they're basically categories of delusions that one can trance themselves in 

becoming attached to these delusions is what causes suffering 

and therefore the 10 fettas are about suffering and working your way through each fetter completely ensures that your delusion doesn't come back, because by its own nature its falsehood. 

reality is like an illusion creating machine so to speak, anything you think of with your mind will turn into an attachment and delusion will follow, even before the attachment the delusion comes 

the fetters destroy the mind and the illusion that is the mind and thats the end of individual self, 

well supposedly, because mind insinuates there is a seperate self. 

without a mind there wouldn't be thought, emotions, feelings, past , present , future, now, words, language, object , a subject, distance, time , space, attachment, duality. there wouldn't be any of this. revealing how the minds function works shed light on it. but becoming a mind without attachments is for masters of enlightenment 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Aakash

[sleepyj]

@Aakash The second fetter is doubt in the goal of becoming an arhat. If you've had some cool realizations but want to stop there and not go the full way into death of the individualized self, then you still have the second fetter I think. In my experience, and in the experience of others i've talked to, its best to focus on fetter number 4 as opposed to 2 and 3. 2 and 3 will naturally go away in the pursuit of reducing 4.

Edited February 9, 2019 by sleepyj

[sleepyj]

@Jkris Yeah, what @Aakash said is right. The 10 fetters are the ten things that keep you stuck in mind. The best way to remove them is by practicing the eightfold noble path, while keeping in mind the 4 noble truths.

[Aakash]

@sleepyj i would say i only have fetters 7 and 9 that get me, but even then its because i haven't read much about the fettas and understand them that this is only a quick judgement. and maybe recently with 8 because of my realisation itself.

but my point still stands, i think you can become an enlightened individual without going to complete buddahood. buddhahood is a lifestyle in my opinion, sure the consciousness levels there are crazy high and in time with the present moment. but you can become enlightened on different level. still there must be one thing that holds enlightenment in place is the realisation of the self. 

[sleepyj]

@Aakash Can you explain more about exactly what you mean in understanding the true self? I do agree that you can become spiritually advanced without buddhahood. I just view enlightenment as full buddhahood, and curious what your definition is. 

[Aakash]

non duality = there is not two but one 

true nonduality = there is only [must be left blank because the word is only a pointer] 

words would include nothingness, emptiness, awareness, consciousness

so true nonduality is the true self 

the true self is buddahood 

for me, the true self is the thing that you are, the only thing that is real in reality 

the thing that the one is made from without any distinctions being made

what this thing is, is your true nature but you can know it to many degrees 

the different degrees are the different degrees of enlightenment 

nonetheless the way we define enlightenment as seekers is a realising or recognising of the true self 

the very thing that i am. 

to recognise it you have to quite the mind

is this not buddahood? 

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Aakash

[Aakash]

sorry about that i'm done editting it 

[Joseph Maynor]

11 minutes ago, Aakash said:

non duality = there is not two but one 

true nonduality = there is only [must be left blank because the word is only a pointer] 

words would include nothingness, emptiness, awareness, consciousness

so true nonduality is the true self 

the true self is buddahood 

for me, the true self is the thing that you are, the only thing that is real in reality 

the thing that the one is made from without any distinctions being made

what this thing is, is your true nature but you can know it to many degrees 

the different degrees are the different degrees of enlightenment 

nonetheless the way we define enlightenment as seekers is a realising or recognising of the true self 

the very thing that i am. 

to recognise it you have to quite the mind

is this not buddahood? 

 

You get to the point where you stop with the "true Self" language as well.  You get to the point where you don't need to conceptualize being.  

Edited February 9, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Aakash]

@Joseph Maynor lol thats a good way to put it, but i'm not trying to use the language, i'm trying to point to the actual thing. 

so does that make it buddahood/ enlightenment is my question

[sleepyj]

My friend @Aakash I appreciate your perspective on this. You seem like a very genuine person. I do think you are wrong in one facet of this though. During the Buddha's journey, he was a student of a teacher who showed him the "eternal self", eventually, the Buddha discarded this concept later on his path as he realized it was delusion. Here is why: there is nothing constant in this universe. Absolutely nothing, everything is growing, evolving and changing. The only thing that does't change (from my non arhat perspective) is the cycle of change and growth itself. The Buddha realized that this eternal self couldn't be eternal because it was a product of his changing, growing, and ultimately limiting form of individuated consciousness. Perhaps there is all this stuff that we can't see yet, that we won't be able to see until we become arhats and are no longer an individuated egoic self on any level. The issue is that claiming we have found an eternal self while we still have growth ourselves to do doesn't work. Its impossible for us to see the whole picture. Whatever is in your experience is fine and cool. But don't assume that its the end, that you've found something constant. Don't reject it, but don't cling to it as eternal, because like I said we cant see the eternal fully while we are still fettered on any level.

 

Not saying that there isn't anything eternal (I dont know if there is), but pretending anything in our experience is eternal is delusion. As long as you are still and individual with fears and such, you can't know for sure. These eternal selves that we attatched to, I have attatched to one in the past as well, are just mind creations mixed in with certain aspects of truth and aren't the full picture.

Edited February 9, 2019 by sleepyj

[Aakash]

@sleepyj my brother; that was a classical piece of literature. i can't complain or argue with that. This is why the only solution for me was to seek out enlightened master, maybe this term means buddahood, and so i will accept that i am deluding myself for the time being. thats the things with degree of enlightenments that your not even sure where your at! 

thank you for this debate, i really enjoyed myself and getting to hear your points of view. 

do you have any questions to ask me? 

[sleepyj]

@Aakash Yes, you never really know exactly where you are at haha. I enjoyed it as well! No questions currently, but I am very interested to see how your break from the forum goes and the update with your path. Please do post about it. Looking forward to keeping up with your path.

[Aakash]

will certainly update if i come across a crazy realisation or something. 

thank you for your help

[Aakash]

@Leo Gura @sleepyj 

i think i've just realised that this is the whole problem with epistamology 

how do you know that what you know is truth 

you can't ever know, until all the questions you've ever thought about asking are answered.

and even then how do you know you have asked all the questions 

what you know isn't absolute by any standards even if you say the truth has to be 

even if the truth hasn't been explored to its fullest degree 

how do you know the buddah experienced the highest consciousness 

or was he just a symbol for the fact that the highest consciousness is infinity 

how do you reach infinity and stop at infinity 

the answer is you don't. 

you can never know 

and thats why enlightened masters always refine their techniques. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Aakash

[sleepyj]

@Aakash Thats a wonderful and true realization. The first part I mean. I personally believe the Buddha reached full enlightenment but of course we cant know for an absolute fact. I don't internally have doubt (related to the second fetter funny enough) in it because I think that all lack of seeing the truth comes from selfishness in one way shape or form. Selfishness, individuation, all come from fetters 1 through 9. But you are absolutely correct that there is no way to know for sure. What we can know is that the buddhas path of dissolving the ten fetters through the eightfold path is what all three of us could use to grow. I don't worry about there being no absolute end, because I'm content in my journey. I know what issues I have to work on and am in that process. It's possible that I dissolve all ten fetters and realize there is more, but I think its best for us to focus on our journey and not try to speculate on what the supposed end will be like without us reaching it. But I do feel you, those feelings you are having are a natural part of the uncertainty to life that everyone feels. It is a very natural and human way to feel.

[Aakash]

OMG thats actually the funniest thing, its the 2nd fetter aswell ! You my friend, have made me see so clearly today. 

dude theres only one way to find out which spiritual teacher found the deepest insight, 

you have to take all teachings  WORLDWIDE to its pinnacles 

you can never know except in your direct experience whether buddah had reached perfect enlightenment. 

you can never know if there is a teacher who had a better consciousness 

but literally YOU as the awareness you are can never know unless you try everything out. 

to get the deepest flavour of knowing! 

 

[sleepyj]

Exactly! haha 

[Aakash]

# the different degrees of knowing! 

# enlightenednotenlightened

#roadtobuddahhood

#excusemecaniorderonecupofthehighestconsciousnesspossible

this is the biggest mindfuck i've ever come across in my life

"how do you know that what you know is true"

Edited February 9, 2019 by Aakash

[Aakash]

@sleepyj i have reviewed my doubt, my mind got abit side tracked when we last spoke by the whole buddism tradition, but i'm certainly sure that the true self or eternal self is the one that i've found, its just so blindingly obvious that it just isn't recognised.  I agree that compared to the method i used that the buddist tradition is more integrating and embodying of general pricipals and views for personal development, and as should be. However, the fact still remains is in truth you are what you are. I don't mean to say this in a hypothetical or dualistic way. 

I literally mean, the Self (I) is the self. even the actor who is the doubter is always still being experienced by someone/something, that very thing that can't turn its awareness on itself, to objectify it, because it is the awareness itself. rising up and coming out so to speak, (but even this is incorrect, its just what is here right here, right now) 

you don't need to tell the truth to find out who you are in other enlightenment methods, its just the underpinning foundation of the whole method. neither how you act or how you speak change the experience itself, it changes it better in dualistic sense , good vs bad, right vs wrong. these are all actions of the experiencing itself, they are still illusions created by the mind as a sense of self. 

i think the 10 fetters are there to be transcended all together, after i had a little thing about each one of them and them as a whole unit together. when you transcend it even for a momentary second, including the eight fold path and the four noble truths, all together you get a glimpse at what is already there. because the mind has grown silent and there is no talking. if you keep searching for something to happen, something miraculous. a new self to be born, consider this seeking will not result in you finding that truth. enlightenment is realisation not an event, and even realisation is used loosely so i don't even like that word anymore, i prefer the word used by rupert spira "remembering". 

getting masterful of the lifestyle is again integrated into the domain of buddahood, which it may not be in other systems. but the lifestyle itself does not change what you are again. it is a secondary layer, but the lifestyle ensure that you don't live a life of delusions, which must be taken seriously. however once again it does not change what you are. 

i myself am not completely resistant to delusion however, i'm adept enough to distinguish when a self-deception could be occuring and that is actually all the time. the only way to live a life completely without delusion is to join a zen monestry or any of those kind of things. because you sit in wakeful state all day and night. which is hardly possible in the west because we must communicate and use our minds. this is where you get masters of the lifestyle, and where right speech, or the eightfold comes in handy, still does not change what you are and that 

true self is pure awareness. (my favourite word i have decided for myself as god)