Countries by Spiral Dynamics Level of Development?

[Leo Gura]

@Synchronicity You need to study developmental psychology and politics deeper.

There are stages to moral, cognitive, and spiritual development. These stages are consistent across people around the world.

Absolutistic worldviews are lower than relativistic ones. With development, an absolutistic person will evolve into a relativistic one, but not vice versa. No amount to growth will turn a relativistic person into an absolutist, or a systems thinker into a black and white thinker.

These are not just my opinions. This is scientific research from within developmental psychology. Study it, if you care to understand.

[Synchronicity]

@Leo Gura I’m not saying Conservatives are more advanced at relativity. If you read my previous posts, I say that Liberals are more advanced in that area.

I’m saying Conservatives are more advanced in other areas that I’ve listed...

And ultimately the strong points can balance out

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Synchronicity

[robdl]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Green is still Tier 1, they have not gone trans-personal yet. 

If a person wanted an egalitarian society for mainly self-interest, that is Orange - not Green. An example would be someone joining a diversity committee and work because it would make them look good and help them get a promotion. The underlying individualistic motivation is Orange, not Green.

Green values egalitarianism due to empathy and a sense of collective. That is Green. If you take that away, it is no longer Green.   

I'm talking about deep unconscious self interest.  Your example involves brazen conscious self-interest.

[Forestluv]

Just now, Synchronicity said:

@Serotoninluv You say that the SD scale is relative (which I agree with) but then you compare the judging criteria to two marathon runners...

This makes it sound like you’re trying to say one is objectively lower-conscious than the other though...

That was not my point. The point is that underlying values and abilities are the criteria in SD, not how someone labels themself.

[Spiral]

A counter-Intuitive thing about Sweden is that we are too individualist, in other words we don't care about each other because we don't have too.

Why? Because the government does it for us, have problems in your life? Go a profession, that's not you family or friends business.  

So ironically now when things are kinda messy(welfare) people care more about each other.

You can watch the documentary  " The Swedish theory of love" for more info.

Found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMUytlKA5EM (use subtitles some parts are in Swedish)

Edited July 18, 2019 by Spiral

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, robdl said:

I'm talking about deep unconscious self interest.  Your example involves brazen conscious self-interest.

That is Tier2 personal transcendence. Tier 1 levels are distinguished by levels of "brazen" self-conscious interest. 

Orange has a very low level of transcendence for that brazen conscious self-interest. Green has a partial transcendence of that brazen conscious self-interest. It is not until Tier 2 in which a high proportion of that brazen conscious self interest is transcended. Neither has transcended deep unconscious self interest. For example, Green has an understanding and embodiment of cultural relativism that Orange lacks. Yet, Green does not understand that their own perspective on cultural relativism is relative. This is a deeper level of self interest that is transcended toward Tier 2 yellow into turquoise. That depth of transcendence is a main aspect of how turquoise is more expansive than green.

[robdl]

15 minutes ago, Synchronicity said:

@Leo Gura I’m not saying Conservatives are more advanced at relativity. If you read my previous posts, I say that Liberals are more advanced in that area.

I’m saying Conservatives are more advanced in other areas that I’ve listed...

And ultimately the strong points can balance out

 

Right, if "consciousness levels" are defined by the growth/advancement from absolutist worldviews to relativistic, that's a narrow/selective definition is what you're saying.  

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by robdl

[Synchronicity]

4 minutes ago, robdl said:

Right, if "consciousness levels" are defined by the growth/advancement from absolutist worldviews to relativistic, that's a narrow/selective definition is what you're saying.  

 

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. There’s additional ways to measure consciousness levels

[Synchronicity]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Synchronicity You need to study developmental psychology and politics deeper.

@Leo Gura But you’ve only studied it from the perspective of relativity.

Mental toughness is another way to measure levels of consciousness and Conservatives tend to excel at that more than Liberals

Conservatives are usually less reactive when they don’ get what they want. This is demonstration of a more unconditional thought process

[Inliytened1]

@Synchronicity yeah - it shouldn't be studied from only the SD scale...that in itself is limited because it's finite. 

That said we should turn our attention to uniting the left and the right and bringing society to a higher level of consciousness holistically.

Whether one "side" is lower than an other is indeed relative and from a higher POV society is One as a whole and needs to be brought forward. 

[Inliytened1]

Of course this probably involves most of the world waking up so we have our work cut out for us 

[Forestluv]

  

43 minutes ago, Synchronicity said:

Mental toughness is another way to measure levels of consciousness and Conservatives tend to excel at that more than Liberals

Then stage blue military men would be at a higher level.

According to SD, mental flexibility (not mental toughness) is a measure of consciousness. And liberals are more mentally flexible than conservatives. 

Conservatives are usually less reactive when they don’ get what they want. This is demonstration of a more unconditional thought process

This is confusing restraint for consciousness. Sam Seder is at a higher conscious level than Ben Shapiro, even tho Ben would show more restraint.  A restrained mind is often highly conditioned.  Restraint as a value appears way down at blue.

Many people that pass through Green become passionate and emotional when as their consciousness expands. 

 

[Synchronicity]

@Serotoninluv Consider that self-restraint can be seen as a form of consciousness. It frees one from egotistical needs

Don’t be so quick to push it down to stage blue

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Synchronicity said:

@Serotoninluv Consider that self-restraint can be seen as a form of consciousness. It frees one from egotistical needs

Don’t be so quick to push it down to stage blue

That is certainly true when evolving from red to blue. 

It is a stage blue value. I didn’t push it down to blue. I didn’t create SD.

Self restraint as a value appeared with the rise of blue. At that time, it allowed evolution from stage red to stage blue . As you suggested, it helped suppress stage red egotistical needs and actions. This was critical for the rise of stage blue civilizations. 

Later, the call of self restraint was used to hinder progress up to Orange and Green. Lack of self restraint at Green is very very different than red lack of restraint - yet blue stage conservatives love to conflate the two. Such as portraying politicians like AOC to be scary hate-filled stage red savages. 

[Synchronicity]

@Serotoninluv Yes that is true that SD is defined that way. Let me rephrase that differently

Don’t be so quick to consider self-restraint an objectively lower-conscious quality

I’m saying that Conservatives are higher-conscious in other areas that the SD scale doesn’t measure

The SD scale isn’t the only way to measure consciousness

Edited July 18, 2019 by Synchronicity

[Forestluv]

@Synchronicity The SD model is based on many years worth of extensive research and empirical data. It is perhaps the most well-supported and sophisticated model of consciousness evolution. I’m not aware of any other model of consciousness evolution that would put conservatives higher than liberals.  

It’s like saying: “In some ways, 4th grade children are more advanced than 8th grade children. And in other ways, 8th graders are more advanced”.

[Synchronicity]

@Serotoninluv So, in your opinion, are liberals objectively higher conscious?

[Forestluv]

31 minutes ago, Synchronicity said:

@Serotoninluv So, in your opinion, are liberals objectively higher conscious?

There is no entity to take ownership of ideas as “my opinion”. As well, objectivism is a stage orange trap. There is no external objective reality.

At this level of discourse, it would be best to say there is a lot of evidence supporting a model in which liberals are at a relatively higher conscious level than conservatives. Yet one should also consider that there are multiple lines of development, such as intellectual, emotions and spiritual lines. So there are many nuances.

[Synchronicity]

@Serotoninluv That’s what I’ve been pointing out this whole discussion. 

But you haven’t even considered one way in which Conservatives could be seen as equals

[Forestluv]

20 minutes ago, Synchronicity said:

@Serotoninluv That’s what I’ve been pointing out this whole discussion. 

But you haven’t even considered one way in which Conservatives could be seen as equals

I have considered and replied to each of your speculations in the context of conscious evolution. As I sit here, I cannot think of a fundamental aspect/value of conservatives that is at a more expansive conscious level than liberals. Yet I am not a political expert. There may be an example. I don’t know of one. 

I don’t think “equal” is the best term. I think developmental stages is more accurate. Like the developmental stages during grade school. An 8th grader is not better than a 4th grader. They are just at different developmental stages.