free will vs no free will

[Jack Walter Leon]

Do you believe in free will? 

Don't you believe in free will?

Can anyone convince me whether free will is real or illusory?

[allislove]

 

[Jack Walter Leon]

I know the video, this time I wanna know the people's opinion because I think the community is quite divided concerning this topic. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Wow.  This is a fascinating question, isn't it.  This is a classic metaphysical question that goes way back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics

I think every person should question themselves about free will.  The presumption is that we have free will.  The reality is more complicated than that linear kind of expectation, divorced of context and competing interests.  But then we don't really want to say we don't have free will because that is defeated by the laugh test, right.  No I'm not assaulting this woman, I don't have free will.  Get outta here!  Right?   We seem to be an admixture of free will and no free will depending on the context.  See, it's more complicated than free will vs. no free will.  That kind of linear, binary, on-off kind of context-independent expectation of the Ego-Mind has its pros and its cons.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Rilles]

Go inquire for yourself. Its pretty easy, you can make a list.

Are you beating your heart?

Are you breathing your lungs?

Are you choosing your thoughts?

Etc. 

Eventually youll find out that everything happens on its own but ego claims it after the fact. 

[Nexeternity]

@Jack Walter Leon  I think it depends on who and what you are referring to.  Like if you can identify yourself with the formless intelligence that is running everything, including your heart beats and all that then yes, there is 100% free will, you are just not conscious of it at this normal level of consciousness.  

Now if you refer to your limited human self, then you have free will to interpret situations as you wish, to choose thoughts... maybe not all the time, tons of automatic interpretations and thoughts happen, but you can stop yourself whenever you remember and choose to silence your mind, to pick a new thought, to interpret things in a new way.

 

[allislove]

1 hour ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

I know the video, this time I wanna know the people's opinion because I think the community is quite divided concerning this topic. 

Leo is also human! 
(just kidding)

After watching the video and contemplating on as @Rilles suggested: "Are you choosing your thoughts?" I found the answer pretty easily. 

[Aaron p]

11 hours ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

Do you believe in free will? 

Don't you believe in free will?

Can anyone convince me whether free will is real or illusory?

@Jack Walter Leon I'm pretty sure it's an illusion well put it like this...if *YOU* are an illusion...then your lesser attributes probably are as well. And also from my direct experience I have noticed that I do not control my decisions. Whatever is going through my head the split second someone asks me to do something COMPLETELY determines how I will react. Then I thought..."well, I'm very very aware and deep within my thinking." Yes, that it what will determine the outcome. And if I wasn't very deep and cunning, thats what would determine the outcome. 

Also, a cross reference with another insight of mine...when "you" become conscious, you look at your memories and become conscious of the *pictures* in your head...giving the illusion that you were always conscious. However this turns out to not be the case. 

Therefore, I would say similar principals stand with your question...I think it's an illusion. Of course I won't know until I'm enlightened. And I cannot WAIT to get enlightened

Edited February 3, 2019 by Aaron p

[Consept]

I don't believe there's free will, for the simple fact that no action takes place independent of anything else. For example, you could say the fact that you were born as far as you know was not your choice, so any choice you make after that can't be free will because you wouldn't have been able to make a choice without this foundation of being you have which was not your choice. 

On a smaller scale say you want to choose your breakfast, you might choose muesli because you heard that it was good for you, but then you're only making that choice because of what you heard, if you didn't hear that you wouldn't have made that choice.

You don't choose to think thoughts, if you did where did the thought to choose a thought come from?

So essentially free will is an illusion, by definition it can't really exist, as everything has to have a cause otherwise how would it come into existence?

[TheAvatarState]

16 hours ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

Can anyone convince me whether free will is real or illusory?

No, no one can do such a thing. Not even Leo. This is a personal question of how much you can drop your limiting beliefs and prove it to yourself. 

What is "free will" fundamentally saying? It is that an action happens completely spontaneously by itself. An output with no input. REALLY think about that. Free will cannot exist in any form if there's even 1% outside influence on your decision process. Have you ever studied how you make a decision? Have you ever noticed how you can't control your thoughts or know what your next thought will be? 

Free will was a false assumption fed to you by society to make you feel like you have freedom to make choices. It's ego pandering. It turns out this is the work of the Devil, because giving you this false assumption of control leads to all kinds of judgment, anxiety, and hatred. Giving you the idea of free will and freedom ACTUALLY ALTERS your decision process, many times for the worse! Any teenager could tell you this, or you could reflect on your own direct experience. 

I don't care if any of this makes sense... It's just an invitation to explore the matter for yourself. That's the only way you'll truly know.

[RichardY]

Freewill; as a relative and not absolute, proposition.

[Jack Walter Leon]

@TheAvatarState

6 hours ago, TheAvatarState said:

No, no one can do such a thing. Not even Leo. This is a personal question of how much you can drop your limiting beliefs and prove it to yourself. 

What is "free will" fundamentally saying? It is that an action happens completely spontaneously by itself. An output with no input. REALLY think about that. Free will cannot exist in any form if there's even 1% outside influence on your decision process. Have you ever studied how you make a decision? Have you ever noticed how you can't control your thoughts or know what your next thought will be? 

Free will was a false assumption fed to you by society to make you feel like you have freedom to make choices. It's ego pandering. It turns out this is the work of the Devil, because giving you this false assumption of control leads to all kinds of judgment, anxiety, and hatred. Giving you the idea of free will and freedom ACTUALLY ALTERS your decision process, many times for the worse! Any teenager could tell you this, or you could reflect on your own direct experience. 

I don't care if any of this makes sense... It's just an invitation to explore the matter for yourself. That's the only way you'll truly know.

And even if society or the devil were 'responsible' for making us feel like we have freedom of choices, it could not have been any different, right? 

I'm not a big believer in free will anyway, I just want to make peace with my ego which is still struggling with my assumption.

My main problem is that I can't deal with all the hatred, violence and war in our world. I can't just say: okay, everything is fine, they are not guilty because they don't have free will. 

How would an enlightened person deal with that? 'Oh yeah, these people are me, we are all one, everything is fine if you rape that woman.' 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Jack Walter Leon

[TheAvatarState]

5 minutes ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

I just want to make peace with my ego which is still struggling with my assumption.

Your ego and this realization are not compatible. They cannot exist at the same time. 

7 minutes ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

My main problem is that I can't deal with all the hatred, violence and war in our world.

That's because you haven't taken the necessary time, effort, and "skin in the game" to understand it. This isn't a light realization... You're going to have to follow all the ramifications, study it for hours and hours, and do the practices for weeks to even catch glimpses of this. 

11 minutes ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

How would an enlightened person deal with that? 'Oh yeah, these people are me, we are all one, everything is fine if you rape that woman.' 

The answers you're seeking will only come when you dive in deeper and directly experience nonduality. Me telling you these things now would potentially be a disservice to you. 

[Jack Walter Leon]

10 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

Your ego and this realization are not compatible. They cannot exist at the same time. 

That's because you haven't taken the necessary time, effort, and "skin in the game" to understand it. This isn't a light realization... You're going to have to follow all the ramifications, study it for hours and hours, and do the practices for weeks to even catch glimpses of this. 

The answers you're seeking will only come when you dive in deeper and directly experience nonduality. Me telling you these things now would potentially be a disservice to you. 

Sounds like you've developed a strong spiritual ego. 

[TheAvatarState]

5 minutes ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

Sounds like you've developed a strong spiritual ego. 

How so?

[Jack Walter Leon]

33 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

Me telling you these things now would potentially be a disservice to you. 

14 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

How so?

It seemed to me that you did not trust me to understand and apply your knowledge because I 'haven't taken the necessary time, effort, and "skin in the game" to understand it.'

Have you? Feel free to enlighten me. 

19 minutes ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Jack Walter Leon

[TheAvatarState]

@Jack Walter Leon I see how what I said could be interpreted as arrogant or egotistical. But consider yourself as a student in math class. I give you the answers now, you nod your head and go "Oh yeah, I understand." But because you didn't derive the answers for yourself, you wouldn't  be able to pass the next test. And when life gets hard, I really don't want you to fail your tests. 

You are asking the right questions, but they cannot be answered by anyone else but you, if you want to embody it in a healthy way. 

[Jack Walter Leon]

@TheAvatarState

Alright then

But who are you refering to when you mention the devil for being responsible? Is it meant symbolically? Do you consider the ego to be the devil?

[TheAvatarState]

@Jack Walter Leon

 

[PetarKa]

Saying free will is an illusion doesn't contain any meaning when I hear it (assuming one is not enlightened). Because when you hear that free will is an illusion, you still will be in a situation to make decisions, free will or no free will.

"Free will is an illusion." is like saying "That which you will do, you will do."

Compare that to the following absurd sentence:

"That which is red, is red."

Edited February 6, 2019 by PetarKa