I think psychedelics can blunt spiritual progress. thoughts?

[Matt8800]

12 hours ago, corndjorn said:

Based off of my experiences and a couple of my friends, i really do think that psychs as a conductive tool for spiritual work is mostly hype, and that actual full enlightenment can never come from a psychedelic, i think psychedelics can give you glimpse experiences though and thus awaken you to nonduality. Due to the fact that psychedelics are energetic amplifiers, its in their name aswell, psychedelic means "soul revealing" and as we know, a substance that amplifies your energetic system can have many benefits, such as dealing with trauma, having a new perspective, and even awakening to nonduality, but theres a difference between an awakening and actual enlightenment, awakening to nonduality is the mere start, a process of dissolving fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from them and its thought patterns, take place. this is why there is a big difference between a zen master and a dude who just awoke to nonduality. the main incongruency that i noticed between psychedelics and enlightenment is firstly, psychs amplify your emotional system thus the chance of you being stuck in your own ego created worlds is higher than if u were sober, especially if you have self esteem issues then take a psych, and all of a sudden you're having a messiah mania or perverting the truth of godhood to make you feel powerful. this only one example, but we all know psychs are big emotional amplifiers, and enlightenment is the process of dissolving (not numbing) your emotions and their underlying fear mechanisms, so i cannot really see psychs being a long term good tool for enlightenment, i can only see it as an awakening or perspective tool, but use it too often and it can make you live in your own bubble of delusions even moreso than normal people. fancy and extreme experiences isnt enlightenment if you ask me. 

also curious what @Leo Gura thinks, all feedback is appreciated though.

@corndjorn Psychedelics are responsible for my awakening.

I smoked some DMT three years ago. I had never heard of non-duality and didnt understand contemplative traditions in the least. 

When I smoked dmt, I saw clear as day that I wasnt my body, suffering is an illusion created by thoughts, beauty is all around but we just sometimes dont see it, love is the most important thing, the only place to find happiness and beauty is in the present moment and I needed to start meditating daily. The next day I started meditating and have meditated every day since. I also discovered that Buddhism, Vedanta, etc taught all the things that DMT taught me but in more detail.

You can judge the tree by the fruit on it and psychedelics have been the most influential thing that has ever happened to me.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Matt8800

[Nahm]

@Matt8800 ?

 

 

                        ?

                        ?

 

[Consilience]

To answer the thread title directly: it’s relative

[thesmileyone]

Quote

this is why there is a big difference between a zen master and a dude who just awoke to nonduality. 

Is there? What's the difference exactly?

[Aquarius]

14 hours ago, corndjorn said:

Based off of my experiences and a couple of my friends, i really do think that psychs as a conductive tool for spiritual work is mostly hype, and that actual full enlightenment can never come from a psychedelic, i think psychedelics can give you glimpse experiences though and thus awaken you to nonduality. Due to the fact that psychedelics are energetic amplifiers, its in their name aswell, psychedelic means "soul revealing" and as we know, a substance that amplifies your energetic system can have many benefits, such as dealing with trauma, having a new perspective, and even awakening to nonduality, but theres a difference between an awakening and actual enlightenment, awakening to nonduality is the mere start, a process of dissolving fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from them and its thought patterns, take place. this is why there is a big difference between a zen master and a dude who just awoke to nonduality. the main incongruency that i noticed between psychedelics and enlightenment is firstly, psychs amplify your emotional system thus the chance of you being stuck in your own ego created worlds is higher than if u were sober, especially if you have self esteem issues then take a psych, and all of a sudden you're having a messiah mania or perverting the truth of godhood to make you feel powerful. this only one example, but we all know psychs are big emotional amplifiers, and enlightenment is the process of dissolving (not numbing) your emotions and their underlying fear mechanisms, so i cannot really see psychs being a long term good tool for enlightenment, i can only see it as an awakening or perspective tool, but use it too often and it can make you live in your own bubble of delusions even moreso than normal people. fancy and extreme experiences isnt enlightenment if you ask me. 

also curious what @Leo Gura thinks, all feedback is appreciated though.

They're just a tool, objectively speaking. Won't work for everyone. It can be really dangerous to do without supervision and research, from a general point of view. They're also illegal in most places, for realistic reasons. 

But if anyone ever does them, they better do it with extensive research in their pocket and being prepared for the worst while expecting the best. 

I also don't agree with their usage, but who am I to stop anyone? I never even tried them, nor am I willing to, so I can't speak from experience.

But since you asked for a perspective on the topic, I'd rather use mantras, prayer, affirmations, binaurals and subliminal audio if needed for certain purposes, namely, achieving a more positive state of mind, becoming more productive after my recent enlightenment experience, balance, relaxation, mindset, etc. They are generally safer, but you still need to take care, do your research and stuff, just to be sure. Know what they are and what they aren't used for.

Not saying this approach is better, just a more gentle approach in case you might be into that kind of stuff. 

I spent 3 years researching them and their effects on me and others, also experimenting what works best for me, and how it can the most effective. So whatever approach you choose you still gotta do the work. The only rule to keep in mind is that they're just the tool, not a necessity. It's easy to get obsessed with them because of everything the people who make them promise them to do.

There's still a lot of marketing strategy in there, and the producers market them as being a cure for everything, instead of being a helpful tool, like a hammer or a phone or any object that is helpful. 

Realistically speaking, it can take years of usage until you can sense some breakthrough. Slow, but steady work that requires dedication, patience and time.

Was only mentioning them so that you know there are alternatives in case you are into that type of approach. Just don't believe everything you read on the internet ok, and I'm saying this to everyone.  

Psychedelics are sort of propulsing you into a world that you might not be ready for, and it's not for everyone. You really seem to have certain inhibitions around them, so if you feel it;s not your style there's no shame in going your way with your own values. Just please don't feel like you have to convince anyone about you being right, or looking for validation for that matter. What I'm saying is, try to question why you made the post in the first place. Are you curious to try them out and looking for someone to convince you (which is a weak character trait in my opinion). Or did you perhaps feel the need to speak up against something, fighting for a cause, which is welcome but still reflective of you not doing the research.

The point I was trying to make is, whatever you do just do the research and take safety precautions. 

I agree with everything you said by the way. But remember that I'm just a random person on the internet, I don't have the answers to everything, just points of view. Only you know what's best for you. 

And enlightenment is merely a tool as well, not the end destination!

It just sounded like you were looking for a mentor if you ask me. If you wanted Leo's opinion, you could've watched his video. Seems like you tried to teach him a lesson, by the way you worded the whole paragraph. You were also overgeneralizing a lot. Just something to consider, not attacking you or anything. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Aquarius

[Salvijus]

12 hours ago, corndjorn said:

i mean, you can clearly see that sadghuru still plays egoic games such as arrogance and also you can see anxiety in him in some interviews

A guy picks up cobras with bare hands being at absolute ease and you think he has anxiety to talk with people? If he'd show a one tiny moment of hesitation or anxiety the cobras would kill him. So there's not even a tiny speck of anxiety in him. All he ever talks about is being at absolute ease with life. And not only him but his whole ashram monks can do this. Living with total ease without any anxiety is a joke to him. 

He looks arrogant intentionally.

Look 3.15min. he says he looks arrogant and he puts a lot effort even to look like that.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Salvijus

[AlwaysBeNice]

You could say there are forced openings can you not?

Therefor, to keep on forcing opening the door, once you've opened the door already, you might just be stumbling around, why not learn to look at the door in your own sober pace.

That said, you should know and discern for yourself, and you probably do.

If you don't feel like going hard (like almost all psychedelics are imo), weed is quite nice imo.

[Arhattobe]

@Salvijus

Here he seems to be out of form. He also definitely has arrogance issues.

[corndjorn]

@Aquarius ive said they are tools in the post, but im saying if youd like to advance in the spiritual path, you cannot be using psychedelics  as a conductive tool anymore at a certain point, the mere subconcious need for mystical or cool experiences for it comes from attachment and thus underlying fear mechanisms, a person in nonduality has no need for a psychedelic experience and would in fact blunt the process that their system is going through. its a good tool as a starting spiritual tool like i said, as it helped me alot aswell, and it awoke me to nonduality, but psych experiences are perverted by many emotions that are amplified, and as humans we should be humble enough to realize that we have blindspots, and giving our blindspots an energetic amplifier is a bad idea, especially if you are on the path. but some tools are more conductive than others. would you use a fancy looking hammer to build your house or would you use a hammer thats most conductive to building the house? you can choose whatever hammer you want at the end of the day, but like i said, at a certain point in the path psychedelic use is not conductive for full enlightenment. and enlightenment is not a tool... tool for what exactly? enlightenment is the clearing of all fear mechanisms and their attachments, basically all of your ego, its not something your ego can take advantage of. some people mistake awakening as enlightenment when that couldnt be farther from the truth. enlightenment is when your limbic system catches up with your awakening, by clearing all subconcious energetic contractions. 

also your post makes alot of condescending assumptions/projections, i dont appreciate that.

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[corndjorn]

@thesmileyone one person actually cleared many of his fear mechanisms, another person just tells himself that he has no fear, or maybe the few humble enough to realize that they are undergoing a process after the awakening.

[corndjorn]

@Nahm awakening to nonduality is one thing, ive been in nonduality for 4 years without psychs (though awakened by psychs). and the process that your limbic system undergoes after the awakening is a whole nother thing. this is what seperates a zen master and a random dude on a forum who just convinces himself that he has no fear anymore because he just awoke to nonduality. one is humble enough to realize that his subconcious mind is going through a process of cleansing fear mechanisms, the other wants to hold on to the truth of nonduality and not look at the reality of the process. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[corndjorn]

@Matt8800 as ive said in the post, psychedelics are good tools for awakenings but NOT full enlightenment. ive had my first nondual awakening through psychs and i thank their purpose in my path, but at a certain point once youve been stabilized in nonduality sober for many years, youll see that the subconcious need for psychedelic or mystical experiences is just another attachment to be dropped, extreme and fancy experiences will never get you to enlightenment, only give u a fancy awakening. but full enlightenment is a slow delicate process of your limbic system catching up with the awakening.

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[corndjorn]

@Consilience ive said psychedelics CAN blunt spiritual progress not WILL. i dont think you read my post well tbh.

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[Nahm]

7 hours ago, Nahm said:

@corndjorn Can you define the foundation of the op....’spiritual progress’? 

 

12 minutes ago, corndjorn said:

@Nahm awakening to nonduality is one thing, ive been in nonduality for 4 years without psychs (though awakened by psychs). and the process that your limbic system undergoes after the awakening is a whole nother thing. this is what seperates a zen master and a random dude on a forum who just convinces himself that he has no fear anymore because he just awoke to nonduality. one is humble enough to realize that his subconcious mind is going through a process of cleansing fear mechanisms, the other wants to hold on to the truth of nonduality and not look at the reality of the process. 

Thanks. I have to say though, that is a weird definition. If you inquire into the meaning behind it, you’ll arrive back at nonduality. 

[corndjorn]

@Nahm  no problem. a person awake to nonduality shouldnt feel wrong about talking about progress, its a natural part of this life were living, and awakening to the beyond is something benefecial indeed and is tied to enlightenment but isnt full enlightenment for the mere fact that all youre life youve been putting memory after memory of fear driven delusion in your subconcious mind, and fear and nonduality are not congruent as a result, fear and the egoic paradigm it drives, dissolves in the face of true nonduality. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[Salvijus]

32 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

@Salvijus

Here he seems to be out of form. He also definitely has arrogance issues.

Are you talking about the braging that he's doing? Yea he always likes to brag about himself. Witch is 100% intentional by him. He has his own reasons to act like that. He's promoting himself you can say. He likes to advertise himself out of pure love for all beings to get them interested in coming to the program.

Have you watched the video i linked? He says clearly he does that intentionally. 

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Salvijus

[corndjorn]

@Salvijus any egoic energy present in the system of a person shows that the person isnt fully enlightened, even if hes just joking. sadhguru is in a deep nondual state but i dont consider him to be fully enlightened. the mere fact that he brags about himself show that he have subconcious self esteem issues, a psychology major would even know that.

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[Nahm]

Same thing going on, both convo’s here. @corndjorn

[Salvijus]

6 minutes ago, corndjorn said:

@Salvijus any egoic energy present in the system of a person shows that the person isnt fully enlightened, even if hes just joking. sadhguru is in a deep nondual state but i dont consider him to be fully enlightened. the mere fact that he brags about himself show that he have subconcious self esteem issues, a psychology major would even know that.

There is a compulsive braging out of self obssesion. And intentional braging for whatever reasons he has to act like that. 

Seriously have you watched the video i linked? He clearly says it.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Salvijus

[corndjorn]

@Salvijus ive watched it, but please read what ive said more carefully please. the mere raw energy of bragging, even if its in a joking manner, still comes from subconcious self esteem issues, which is not synonomous with enlightenment. i suggest reading shunryu's work, he has stuff that explains this.