I think psychedelics can blunt spiritual progress. thoughts?

[Forestluv]

In general, be aware of attachments and identification to an idea of what enlightenment is. 

[Leo Gura]

@corndjorn You just aren't using psychedelics properly. Not the right ones, in the right ways, with the right intentions.

Psychedelics are very nuanced things. There is an art and a science to taking them which requires careful attention to master.

A few trips is not anywhere near enough to figure psychedelics out. If you haven't taken 30+ trips in the proper ways, you won't really understand psychedelics. Psychedelics must also be combined with existential inquiry.

Also, keep in mind that people have different brain types and personality types. Maybe psychedelics are not so effective for you, but for others like me, they are undeniably effective. So be careful not to over-universalize your personal limited experiences. It is a fact that psychedelics transform peoples lives. Just maybe not yours.

Then again, I'm willing to bet you've never done a breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT trip.

[corndjorn]

@Serotoninluv i am aware, my whole process is to disidentify and dissolve attachments and their underlying fear mechanisms, though i do have blindspots ofc because im not fully enlightened, thank you for your heads up though.

[corndjorn]

@Leo Gura ive used psychedelics and benefited greatly from them, ive awoken to nonduality because of these substances and so i show my gratitude for that. However, many people including some gurus think that awakening and full enlightenment are synonomus with each other, when that couldnt be farther from the truth. Your limbic system has to catch up to the awakening by the slow process of dissolving subconcious fear mechanisms and attahcments running away from said fear mechanisms. 

Why i say at a certain point psychedelics are risky bussiness for a persons spiritual path is because the mere fact that the person is going through the process of dissolving attachments, goes against what many people do which is the subconcious chase of nondual experiences through psychedelics. now there isnt anything wrong with that for seeking purposes, but once awakened and you stabilize for a while psychedelics become more pointless ime and other peoples experience that ive talked to. energetic amplifiers have so much benefit im not denying that, but we are humans and we have egoic blindspots, and giving those blindspots an energetic amplifier will only make your process to enlightenment more rocky or more likely too. you can still use it as a tool sure, but based on what ive said i think its a flawed tool at a certain point, and there are more conductive ways of going through your spiritual process.

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, corndjorn said:

@Serotoninluv i am aware, my whole process is to disidentify and dissolve attachments and their underlying fear mechanisms, though i do have blindspots ofc because im not fully enlightened, thank you for your heads up though.

I’m just saying be aware of identifying with an idea of enlightenment. By self-describing yourself as not fully enlightened it means you are evaluating yourself relative to some idea you have of what enlightenment is. 

If I asked if you were hithalmed, you wouldn’t know how to answer because you have no idea of hithalmed.  

[Salvijus]

18 minutes ago, corndjorn said:

still comes from subconcious self esteem issues.

It comes from pure consciousness. That's what word the "intentional" means. It means he is creating it from scratch. And that's clearly what he said.

I can sit here and create joy, i sit here and create hate or anger. It doesnt necessary have to mean that it's coming from subconciousness. It could be 100% conscious doing.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Salvijus

[corndjorn]

@Salvijus lol

[Leo Gura]

@corndjorn Awakening and enlightenment are identical terms (at least on this forum). Yes, there are many degrees of wokeness and many degrees of embodiment and mastery. Yes, there is much left to master and become conscious of even after a deep awakening. "Full enlightenment" is virtually a fantasy and no method promises it. To become fully conscious of your entire emotional system and subconscious mind is a very tall order to fill. But even here, I think psychedelics can be helpful as you can use them to become more conscious of all aspects of yourself.

Of course psychedelics will not do all the work for you if you're shooting for "full enlightenment". You'll need to spend THOUSANDS of hours in contemplation and self-study to achieve that.

If psychedelics cause you to get lost in ego, that's something you're doing. It doesn't have to be that way.

I use psychedelics quite sparingly. For every 1 trip I do hundreds of hours of meditation, integration, contemplation, and study. So there is no problem.

If you're just tripping balls every week and doing no other spiritual work, yeah, that could become problematic.

[corndjorn]

@Serotoninluv you have a hand, if you self describe yourself as having a hand is that wrong? im awake to nonduality but not fully enlightened, doesnt go against nondual truth at all actually, its kinda paradoxical like that.

[Salvijus]

5 minutes ago, corndjorn said:

@Salvijus lol

Read again.

[Vingger]

@Leo Gura Is possible to become conscious of the subconscious mind? have you experience it without psychedelics? 

do you still consider pot as a non useful tool?

 

 

[corndjorn]

@Leo Gura full enlightenment isnt really a fantasy since if there are degrees of depth of nonduality then there is a complete enlightenment, when all subconcious fears are released,that is considereed complete enlightenment. and yes i do know its a tall order, ive been stablized in nonduality for 4 years and have been doing mostly zen practices to embody the truth more deeply (releasing the subconcious fears). and i do agree with you that psychedelics can aid in many ways, as ive said energetic amplifiers have their benefits, but at a certain point in the path i feel like dealing with psychs is a bit like playing with fire, it can amplify blindspots and thus the process of dissolution becomes more rockier, depending on how well your foundation is of course. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Vingger said:

@Leo Gura Is possible to become conscious of the subconscious mind? have you experience it without psychedelics?

Ultimately there is no such thing as the subconscious mind. That is a conceptual abstraction. What is real is present in your direct experience right now, and at all times.

But more practically-speaking, yes, you can basically become conscious of anything that is "running" you. But that is WAY beyond enlightenment and will take you decades of serious work. Very very very few spiritual masters have done this. Emotional self-mastery is much harder than enlightenment.

Quote

do you still consider pot as a non useful tool?

I never said it was a useless tool. I said it has a major downside in my mind due to its addiction potential and dulling stoning effects. It's too easily overused, becoming a chronic thing people do. It becomes recreational all to easily.

I don't see the point in it when there are better options available like LSD, mushrooms, or 5-MeO-DMT.

Edible pot is probably better than smoked pot for spiritual growth purposes. Although I'm not experienced with pot. It never appealed to me.

The trio of mushrooms, LSD, and 5-MeO-DMT will transform your entire life forever if used properly.

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, corndjorn said:

@Serotoninluv you have a hand, if you self describe yourself as having a hand is that wrong? im awake to nonduality but not fully enlightened, doesnt go against nondual truth at all actually, its kinda paradoxical like that.

I’m just saying be aware that you have an idea that there is some “thing” you refer to as “enlightenment”. You seem to be making an assumption that this thing exists and that you have partially acheived this thing. 

I think the concepts are fine for communication and grounding. The problem I encounter is confusing the map for the territory. 

The hand example relates an idea or perception of a hand to enlightenment, further suggesting there is an association with enlightenment as an idea or thing. 

To loosen that perspective, I would ask you if it is wrong to thadre to gakila if humlo is predlak? The mind will not like this question because it must surrender control of the narrative.

[corndjorn]

@Leo Gura nonduality can often be an ideology or even energetic experience that many people think its nonduality too, paradoxically. just saying. the subconcious mind is a natural part of existence, a nondual person has no reason to cling to nondual concepts such as the nonexistence of things, nonduality is beyond existence and nonexistence. 

[corndjorn]

@Serotoninluv language is limited and you have to communicate it wrong sometimes anyway. and enlightenment is a thing, i think youre the one thats attached to concepts, more specifically nondual concepts. awakening to nonduality is one thing, and complete enlightenment is another thing. its an observable process in your limbic system that deepens the nondual state youre in, until there is no process or no anything at all, only until your subconcious mind is cleansed, can that be truthful to say.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, corndjorn said:

the subconcious mind is a natural part of existence

Oh yeah? Point to it.

Have you ever actually contemplated: What is the mind? Where is the mind? Does mind even exist?

[Nahm]

When only Mu will do.

[corndjorn]

@Leo Gura a person who is dealing with borderline personality disorder for instance, we can see observable behaviors of his subconcious mind coming to play. only at complete enlightenment can you truthfully say you are beyond, before that is a slow and delicate process that occurs after awakening to nondual truth. to say the subconcious mind doesnt exist at yours and my point of being is not very truthful. and a nondual person has no reason to avoid truth.

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

When only Mu will do.

Yep. That’s what it boils down to.