I think psychedelics can blunt spiritual progress. thoughts?

[corndjorn]

Based off of my experiences and a couple of my friends, i really do think that psychs as a conductive tool for spiritual work is mostly hype, and that actual full enlightenment can never come from a psychedelic, i think psychedelics can give you glimpse experiences though and thus awaken you to nonduality. Due to the fact that psychedelics are energetic amplifiers, its in their name aswell, psychedelic means "soul revealing" and as we know, a substance that amplifies your energetic system can have many benefits, such as dealing with trauma, having a new perspective, and even awakening to nonduality, but theres a difference between an awakening and actual enlightenment, awakening to nonduality is the mere start, a process of dissolving fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from them and its thought patterns, take place. this is why there is a big difference between a zen master and a dude who just awoke to nonduality. the main incongruency that i noticed between psychedelics and enlightenment is firstly, psychs amplify your emotional system thus the chance of you being stuck in your own ego created worlds is higher than if u were sober, especially if you have self esteem issues then take a psych, and all of a sudden you're having a messiah mania or perverting the truth of godhood to make you feel powerful. this only one example, but we all know psychs are big emotional amplifiers, and enlightenment is the process of dissolving (not numbing) your emotions and their underlying fear mechanisms, so i cannot really see psychs being a long term good tool for enlightenment, i can only see it as an awakening or perspective tool, but use it too often and it can make you live in your own bubble of delusions even moreso than normal people. fancy and extreme experiences isnt enlightenment if you ask me. 

also curious what @Leo Gura thinks, all feedback is appreciated though.

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[TheAvatarState]

Psychedelics aren't for everyone. Accept that.

Psychedelics are merely tools. If you're not bringing a high level of preparation and consciousness to the table, don't expect to get high-level insights out of it. Psychedelics will take you straight to enlightenment if you do the research and work.

[corndjorn]

@TheAvatarState I highly doubt it tbh. just the mere fact that we are humans and we have egoic blindspots is enough reason to be very careful with believing that psychs are perfect, because even though people dont really think that, i think many subconciously do. Like i said they have many benefits and they benefited me aswell, but at a certain point energetic amplifiers are not congruent to enlightenment, it just doesnt make any sense to me at my point in the path. anything that makes your emotional bubbles bigger is not enlightenment, enlightenment is the clearing of emotional bubbles, not just awakening to nonduality, awakening to nonduality is the start. but sadly, since many have these fancy nondual experiences on psychs, they think its enlightenment. if you think it takes you straight to enlightenment then are u saying you are stabilized in enlightenment or just with the psych experience? cuz if its just an experience of enlightenment then that doesnt do anything benefecial for me, i already awakened to nonduality, but my system is undergoing systemic changes which is clearing energetic contractions, and giving my system a psychedelic which amplifies bubble contractions is just a bad idea at my point, so this is why im saying psychedelics at a certain point would blunt your progress. has alotta benefits for people starting out for sure but people whove been stabilized in nonduality long enough i think can relate to what i am saying. 

[Forestluv]

@corndjorn That sounds like genuine reflection of one’s own direct experience. ?  

[corndjorn]

@Serotoninluv  ?  

[ivory]

Hmm... you seem associate awakening as a precursor to enlightenment. To me they mean the same thing.

[Consilience]

It’s completely relative. What works for one my not work for another. 

 

Some my most intense and profound states if being have occured after smoking weed, which isnt even a real psychedelic. And then being able to integrate those experiences has, without a shadow of a doubt, helped along the spiritual journey. 

 

Don’t become dogmatic yo~

Edit: Maybe you’re right though. I view psychedelics as tools along the journey. Not the end result, I guess you could say.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Consilience

[corndjorn]

@ivory awakening to nonduality is not full enlightenment. your energetic system which has a memory of fear mechanisms and attachments has to catch up to the awakening. only then can that be full enlightement. because how can you be truly nondual when fear mechanisms are still in your subconcious mind? a cleansing process of your limbic system has to take place for full enlightenment.

[corndjorn]

@Consilience I dont think you read my post if you think im being dogmatic. i already stated they have their benefits, but at a certain point in the path energetic amplifers are not conductive for enlightenment because they amplify the mere thing that everyone on the spiritual path is clearing, which is emotional bubbles which are all based off subconcious fear mechanisms. also, intense and profound experiences have nothing to do with real enlightenment, they can have their purposes in peoples paths though. this is why i say psychs experiences can have benefits such as awakening to nonduality and gives new perspectives (although with alot of amplified emotion which can delude you, and were human, so we have blindspots), doing spiritual work sober is much more conductive than psychedelic experiences, you deal with way less egoic blindspots this way, because psychs amplify emotion and their thought patterns so much so that its very easy to be suggestible to their realities. and the mysticalness and profoundness feelings of all psych experiences come from emotion. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[Salvijus]

 

5 hours ago, corndjorn said:

actual enlightenment can never come from a psychedelic, 

Sadhguru says you can reach enlightenment with psychedelics if you know how to use them properly. If you have the necessary sadhana attached to them. For this you clearly need a guru or an enlightened shaman.

He also says psychedelics are the worst way out of every other way to reach enlightenment. Tho, he himself uses external substences to do things. Like he uses intoxicants like cobra's venom to do some consecration. You can say he's using psychedelics here

But there's a difference. He knows exacly what his doing and how to play with substences. If some random guy drinks cobra's venom he'll just die, he won't get enlightened

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Salvijus

[corndjorn]

@Salvijus Like I said, psychedelics can awaken a person to nonduality, but awakening to nonduality is not full enlightenment. your energetic system which has a memory of fear mechanisms and attachments has to catch up to the awakening. only then can that be full enlightement. because how can you be truly nondual when fear mechanisms are still in your subconcious mind? a cleansing process of your limbic system has to take place for full enlightenment. Psychedelics, being energetic amplifiers by their nature, amplify your consciousness which can lead to nondual awakening and also other things such as dealing with trauma and having new perspectives, but they also amplify your emotional bubbles ALOT, and humans by nature have egoic blindspots, especially during psychedelic experiences because everything is just amplified to a ridiculous degree. All emotion and their thought patterns are based off of fear mechanisms in your subconious mind. when you awaken to nonduality, you realize fear is delusion, thus, the process of uncontracting your limbic system of fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist them, start to take place. Also, you shouldnt take any Guru's word just because he says hes enlightened. many gurus awoke to nonduality and stabilized for many years but they dont admit that they arent fully enlightened either, i mean, you can clearly see that sadghuru still plays egoic games such as arrogance and also you can see anxiety in him in some interviews, this does not indicate a fully enlightened man, although he is in a very deep nondual state i have to say, its just that he hasnt dealt with alot of his issues and him being a guru and being attached to that identity kind of stops him from seeing his issues. I have been in nonduality for 4 years, enlightenment is not instatenous, awakening is however. the veils that cover reality slowly uncover from your subconcious once awakened, only when they are fully gone can you consider yourself fully enlightened.

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[corndjorn]

@Joseph Maynor awakening to nonduality is one thing, the process that your limbic system undergoes after the awakening is another thing. the process by which it clears fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from those fears, since fear is delusional to a person awoke to nonduality. many misunderstand that enlightenment comes with awakening, they couldnt be farther from the truth however, its only the mere start, full enlightenment is when your limbic system catches up with the awakening. I suggest reading or watching some of sheng yen's work, and also shun ryu, both are buddhist monk masters who have been stable in nonduality for many years, but they have the guts to admit that they arent fully enlightened yet, unlike many other gurus. 

[Esoteric]

Like some said, it's relative and depends on so many factors like your intention, maturity etc. For me ayahuasca and rapé have been tremendous tools for my spiritual progress. And actually not so much for dissolving your ego, but that is useful too, but what I have found out even more is to work with resistance. You will purge when the experience gets too much, and when you are being open and strive to be open in the body the medicine does wonders. Both the aya and rapé works like this. So you can work on this without psychs, of course. But damn they speed up the process if you are genuine in your seeking.

If you get caught up in concepts and past experiences on psychs they will slow down your progress. So it's not that simple as to say they do good or bad. Its about how you work with them.

[corndjorn]

@Esoteric I have never stated that its not relative. and yes i do agree with you about the benefits you stated, i stated them aswell in my post. ive used psychedelics for many times responsibly (and uresponsibily) and helped my path indeed, i never deny that. However, i have been in nonduality for over 4 years and at this point in my path, me taking a psychedelic is very pointless because for one; I dont feel the need to chase or experience nondual states anymore, or have a very wowzer mystical experience, since the subconcious need for it is just another attachment and fear mechanism that im clearing out anyway. i think anyone whos been stable in nonduality for a while knows that taking energetic amplifiers at their point in the path would blunt the limbic system process thats occuring after awakening to nonduality. awakening to nonduality is one thing, the process that occurs after in your limbic system which clears your fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist it, is another thing. and this process should be respected and taken with consideration, energetic amplifiers can make you see through some fear mechanisms, but humans have many blindspots, and you dont want a blindspot to be amplified so much so that its even a bigger blindspot now. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[Esoteric]

@corndjorn Sorry was skimming through the thread pretty quickly. But yeah, I think we are pretty much in agreement. When psychs have done their job or act as a crutch I will obviously stop using them. But I don't know if they can be worked on deeper levels for me, and neither do you. For some people it may work great. People are unique and have different needs and tools to suite their psychology and physiology. How they work with emotions etc

One persons pile of shit is anothers persons treasure.

[corndjorn]

@Esoteric Yes, I am aware that psychedelics can be benefical for some people, but for a person who is undergoing the process of clearing out emotional bubbles, taking an energetic amplifier that amplifies your emotional bubbles (and also facets of consciousness and reality, such as nonduality) is a risky bussiness for someone who isnt seeking anymore and is just going through the process of enlightenment, since awakening to nonduality is one thing, which many gurus you know have done (many mistake this as enlightenment aswell) but full enlightenment which only occurs when your limbic system catches up with the awakening, is another thing. its a delicate process of releasing fear mechanisms and the attachments you use to battle them. so energetic amplifiers are dangerous in this regard because they make you more suggestible to your own egoic paradigms that you are blind to (the ones you are not blind to however, psychs can help in that regard, depending on if youre genuine or not). and if blindspots are amplified, your process to enlightenment is gonna be an unneccessarily bumpy ride.

Edited February 2, 2019 by corndjorn

[Rilles]

I havent done psychedelics so I’ll paraphrase a Rupert Spira video

Person asking questions (PAQ): ”Whenever I do Mushrooms I get in touch with awareness and everything is lovely and beautiful” 

Rupert: ”Are you aware right now?”

PAQ ”Yes”

Rupert ”How far do you need to go to be aware?”

PAQ ”Not far at all”

Rupert ”You dont need to do anything to be what you are, you are always awareness”

 

[Esoteric]

@corndjorn Yes, people that don't get benifits from using psychs anymore shouldn't use them, I agree.

[corndjorn]

@Rilles pretty much sums it up haha. at a certain point in peoples path they realize the pointlessness of the subconcious chasing or want of mystical nondual experiences. you awake to nature, then your limbic system goes through a process which catches up with nature, thus harmonizes with the awakening and complete nonduality or enlightenment is realized. 

[Esoteric]

10 minutes ago, Rilles said:

I havent done psychedelics so I’ll paraphrase a Rupert Spira video

Person asking questions (PAQ): ”Whenever I do Mushrooms I get in touch with awareness and everything is lovely and beautiful” 

Rupert: ”Are you aware right now?”

PAQ ”Yes”

Rupert ”How far do you need to go to be aware?”

PAQ ”Not far at all”

Rupert ”You dont need to do anything to be what you are, you are always awareness”

 

That's great. Hope everyone sees this so they can get instantly enlightened. That's what happened to Spira, right? Or no, he spent 20+ years doing mantra/concentration meditation. I like Spira, but it's easy to say "just be aware". His prior concentration practice for sure had a part in why he could benefit so quickly from his advaita practice. And advaita is great but sometimes it takes work to be stable and interested in being aware, and this is where psychedelics CAN help to speed up this process.