Martin ball and his insomnia

[outlandish]

Wow this thread... 

Lots of strong opinions in here! I think this would be a good moment to dial it back a bit, and try to recognize that we know a lot less than we think, leave the door open ajar 

It will be interesting to see what Martin has to say once he has passed through this.

[now is forever]

8 minutes ago, outlandish said:

It will be interesting to see what Martin has to say once he has passed through this.

maybe he will never ever want to bark in his life again...

[Arthur]

Some very immature discussions here.

The bottom line is, if you are serious about Spirituality, you will do whatever it takes (including psychedelics).

Otherwise, here, take this for your efforts:

And keep your awakening to yourself, no need to share it or educate other people. 

[now is forever]

10 minutes ago, Arthur said:

 

Some very immature discussions here.

 

what is immature about barking? i really wonder...

did anyone get bitten? if someone got bitten please check if you are tetanus vaccinated!!!

[now is forever]

@Serotoninluv you know the problem about psychedelics i observed (well that goes also for other „soft“ drugs) is, that because of the overemphasis on negative sideffects, people who consume them for their positive effects tend to balance the libra with overglorification and tend to close their eyes a little - if that needs to be like that so there is a communicated balance, or if it is selfdeception, i can’t say. but most of the time everyone here tries to communicate that it is not a walk in the park, although in this specific bubble here the world of psychedelics is a little too white painted sometimes. (or because this world is a rorschachtest it‘s a little to black painted sometimes)

Edited January 29, 2019 by now is forever

[thesmileyone]

Not liking this zen devilry stuff. Everyone is equal... Seems a lot like behaviour I have seen elsewhere.

[Forestluv]

@now is forever I have observed that dynamic in some users as well. 

I find it fascinating how many variations of experience psychedelics yield - among people and within a single mind. I did three Ayahuasca ceremonies at a retreat and each one was completely different for me. I sat in a similar spot during each ceremony, they each started at the same time and were all within one week. Yet, each was completely different. As well, I was amazed by the diversity of experiences of participants at the retreat. Other drugs seem to effect the mind-body in a roughly similar way - things like opiods, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, cannibis, amphetamines have fairly predictable and similar effects on the mind-body. If someone drinks six beers there will be a similar effect on the mind-body regardless of whether they are watching a football game or at a Bar-b-que. Of course the details of the experience will have variations, yet the effect of the alcohol is similar.

Yet with psychedelics there can be completely different effects depending on so many different variables. Among different people and the individual themself. It's a major reason I think people should be cautious with psychedelics, especially newbies. I've been with first-time trippers many times and the range of experience is astonishing to me. . . . I was in an AirBnB in Medellin Colombia and people at the place were smoking weed and drinking moderately. One of the women just seemed to thrive in party atmospheres and going with the flow. Around midnight, they decided to go out clubbing. Someone pulled out a bunch of LSD tabs and about half the group took one. I noticed the woman nonchalantly took a few of them and swallowed them without hesitation. This got my attention and I asked her how often she does this. She replied "this is my first time taking a psychedelic". I thought she is totally screwed tonight and I'm not going to be part of the train wreck that will happen in a couple hours - so I stayed in. I see her the next day and she is totally fine. She looked fatigued from a late night out, yet there was not indication at all the LSD caused her any adverse effects. It was real LSD and she had a great time. She seemed unfazed the rest of the week. . .  I've seen other first time users go through terrible struggles. My own experiences have ranged from indescribable love and connection to indescribable terror and suffering. 

I've noticed all the clinical psychedelic therapy studies tried to neutralize as many variables as possible. Participants went through psychotherapy, prepared for the psychedelic sessions, the sessions took place in highly controlled settings and psychotherapy sessions continued after treatment for integration. I think this is one reason the studies were so successful. I think if they got loosey-goosey with preparation and setting, the results could have been different.

Imo, psychedelics don't become an efficient spiritual tool until someone has reached a Green level of awareness and maturity. 

 

[Girzo]

To get back on the topic, I wish Martin to come back to health soon!

He has created many admirable works of art, like this song: 

It really sucks that he has to go through it all. It doesn't matter whether psychedelics have played a role or not.

 

[moon777light]

On 1/29/2019 at 2:48 PM, Salvijus said:

For them there is no problem. They cross the border and they come back.

What he means is that someone who's a on a path of kriya when they reach the peak of enlightenment they are still very physcially capable. It's not the same with others. Others have huge trouble to remain in body and to keep it healthy. but For them there is no problem. 

This is really interesting video about how saints who reach the peak of enlightenment struggle with their body.

You will have a better understanding what he means by that.

You can skip to 4.15min. 

 

thank you so much! so like those hardcore yogis who are more after achieving nondual states than caring for the body? makes sense that their health would go down if they aren't active anymore. I realized that i kept a wrong idea about enlightenment-it has nearly nothing to do with health. All the stories people sell that if your "enlightened" you will be superhuman and nearly immortal and living perfectly is a lie. i guess i was really attached to the idea of that and im still trying to fully shed myself of it. I mean it sounds so attractive and tempting, who wouldnt want to live in the utmost health and have all these fancy things (whatever idea the person sells). But that means your chasing this idea and your wants. Which makes you just chase your own tail in circles. 

 

[moon777light]

this thread went off path by a lot, i think its original intention was just caring concern for Martin's health. Update, he wrote that he was just diagnosed with thalamocortical dysrhythmia insomnia, and that he found out that it had been building since infancy. So we know that psychedelics was not the root cause of this, but it i think it definitely exacerbated it.

I Hope he can get through this successfully

As for the name-calling, i noticed that whoever has a idea challenging or opposing something leo said, even in a gentle manner, will be put down, whether it be called zendevil or ignoring the person's further questions. People tend to use the defense "notice how this triggers you" too.

 

[AlwaysBeNice]

22 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@now is forever I have observed that dynamic in some users as well. 

I find it fascinating how many variations of experience psychedelics yield -

Ye, some can take a lot and barely move out of their regular mind mode, some take a little and they rebirth the whole universe, this is all the play and guidance of God, not a materialistic equation, it's therefor not impossible or unlikely, that despite many high doses, a crossing a certain treshhold was not given or integrated,

as 'full' enlightenment, as Ramana and some others talk about, is said that it's always being in the perfect stillness of 'wakeful-sleep', wherein deep sleep is also Consciousness, different than the normal waking state, and different than sleep,.. ((but which he may or may not also experience))

--

18 hours ago

'After two days of extend work with EEG analysis and neurofeedback treatments here in San Diego, the current official diagnosis is thalamocortical dysrhythmia insomnia. I did get three short rounds of sleep last night, hoping for something more substantial tonight, but this is a tricky issue, and a severe one. Basically, it’s something that’s been building since infancy. That’s all for now . . .'

Hm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamocortical_dysrhythmia , doesn't seem very definitive, it's also not like we understand the brain very well, and we know it changes with behavior or thinking, idk

 

[moon777light]

the basically doesnt say anything new sadly, because the essence of insomnia is that something is disturbing your neural networks connected to sleep/awake cycle (or disrhythmic/dysrhythmic). The main networks for sleep are from the reticular formation-->thalamus-->cortex. 

[outlandish]

From Martin Ball's facebook page:

Quote

After two days of extend work with EEG analysis and neurofeedback treatments here in San Diego, the current official diagnosis is thalamocortical dysrhythmia insomnia. I did get three short rounds of sleep last night, hoping for something more substantial tonight, but this is a tricky issue, and a severe one. Basically, it’s something that’s been building since infancy. That’s all for now . . .

 

[corndjorn]

On 1/29/2019 at 9:41 AM, Serotoninluv said:

This assumes an egoic sober mind state is more real than a psychedelic mind state. 

@Serotoninluv I honestly believe that psychs make a person more egoic in the long term then if the person was sober. 

[MsNobody]

@Serotoninluv very interesting what you said, I see that with my friends too, what I also noticed is that depending on their level of consciousness it doesn’t matter much how much they take it, I’ve asked some people I know about quantity, trying to find out their insights etc, but specially the ones who are not interested in spirituality and take it most recreationally, they talk about all the colors, the objects moving, the music being out of this world, there arentmany internal interaction, I guess because since they haven’t known themselves, or haven’t done any pd work, I would say the experiences will be shallow, doesn’t matter how many tabs one takes, and of course I see this in myself, I have a high tolerance for many psychedelics and have been using it for a while now, if I’m not doing the work, meditating, taking care of my body and mind, the trip is just mellow, with exception of dmt, ayahuasca, Iboga, those will shake my reality 99% of the times you take. I was taking lsd and mushrooms very often, I’ve been on a break for 6 months because I saw that most importantly is the work I do out of the trips, the integration like you said is key, along with set and setting. Such a fascinating tool, but like everything we need to know how to use it otherwise we are giving pearls to pigs ?

[now is forever]

8 hours ago, MsNobody said:

@Serotoninluv very interesting what you said, I see that with my friends too, what I also noticed is that depending on their level of consciousness it doesn’t matter much how much they take it, I’ve asked some people I know about quantity, trying to find out their insights etc, but specially the ones who are not interested in spirituality and take it most recreationally, they talk about all the colors, the objects moving, the music being out of this world, there arentmany internal interaction, I guess because since they haven’t known themselves, or haven’t done any pd work, I would say the experiences will be shallow, doesn’t matter how many tabs one takes, and of course I see this in myself, I have a high tolerance for many psychedelics and have been using it for a while now, if I’m not doing the work, meditating, taking care of my body and mind, the trip is just mellow, with exception of dmt, ayahuasca, Iboga, those will shake my reality 99% of the times you take. I was taking lsd and mushrooms very often, I’ve been on a break for 6 months because I saw that most importantly is the work I do out of the trips, the integration like you said is key, along with set and setting. Such a fascinating tool, but like everything we need to know how to use it otherwise we are giving pearls to pigs ?

this is such an inspiring post! so here is what are the thoughts i get from being here in this forum and having the experience from years ago in my teens and also by realizing how some people i know and some people here are using psychedelics in a responsible manner. even trying to standardize rituals out of their experiences.

well the thing is, of course we want to experiment on them and we want to find out things about ourselves, and things about the deeper truth’s in life, about spirituality and it’s substance and that’s all fine - but looking really closely a lot of psychoactive substances that are used for spiritual reasons are used in a special kind of setting, some kind of ritual that has a direction and despite the substance itself the deeper meaning of asking and answering a question about contents or non contents of being.

so of course it’s shallow to just look at the picture without interpreting it in a way and adapting the insights to one’s life. that’s getting out lesser than 50% of the raw material (that’s such a nice insight) 

in that sense even if the substance is catapulting us straight into the other world, without looking at the moon there is no way to land on it. the moon in that sense is the subconscious mirror that shows that what is hidden. but it also says to be careful as when we come back it might be that we start howling to the moon because we miss it so much.

realizing that psychedelics if used as medicin do have to be used as medicin with a patient information leaflet - do i need to say more? 

in the end if the situation really was induced by the substance or just reinforced by it we don’t know, but what we can say is: better not mess with circadian rhythms too much.

much love ?

Edited February 2, 2019 by now is forever