The Case for Eating Meat

[Cudin]

1 minute ago, Shadowraix said:

@Cudin Not the way nature intended for us to be? If anything I'd say we can't ever be what nature didn't intend us to be. Everything we do is in our nature and exactly as was intended. 

Yes and no. No other mammal cook their food. No other mammal also shoots heroin. I know the natural / artificial boundary is blurry (non-existent, really), but try to read what I am trying to convey, not what you want to debunk.

[Matt8800]

1 hour ago, Shadowraix said:

Not at all. I am not concluding that any view is correct or wrong. I am saying you can't just hold the words of others as true until you have confirmed it for yourself. Not even what Leo says. 

I have confirmed them for myself and it appears others have as well.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

I have confirmed them for myself and it appears others have as well.

How did this confirmation happen?

Did you watch images of animals suffering with an open heart, and truly feel okay with it?

Or did you begin and end in the mind, while using certain rational defenses for why eating meat is morally defensible because of a desire to protect your self-image as a "righteous person" from your own personal judgements? And then did you work backward from the idea "I'm a righteous person", and then find a way to continue identifying as a "righteous person" by using mental gymnastics to find ways to justify meat-eating on a public forum where you can convince others (and thus yourself) that meat-eating is a defensible action and that you are still a "good and righteous" person?

My guess is the latter. 

So, my question is... Why does eating meat make you feel so guilty?

[Matt8800]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, you're believing in what Nisargadatta says just because he's an enlightened master? Why does he know better than you what's right for you?

That is not what I said. Anyone that knows me knows I dont give two shits about what someone else thinks, regardless of who they are, unless I investigate it for myself  

My point was simply that there seems to be an assumption by many that eating meat makes one "un-spiritual". 

[Matt8800]

1 hour ago, Cudin said:

We cook our foods, and that's not the way nature intended us to behave.

Do you feel hungry when you look at a breathing cow?

Do you feel hungry when you look at fresh strawberries?

It's just a matter of cultural programming. We barely have the necessary hardware to consume other animals meat. We don't have claws, our teeth are not designed for meat.

We are pretty much chimps wearing suits. Chimps don't eat barbecue.

(this is not a debate, I will not reply, just consider what I am saying)

You are correct that chimps dont BBQ but they do eat meat.

It is ideal to cook meat to avoid sicknesses and parasites.

[Matt8800]

47 minutes ago, Emerald said:

How did this confirmation happen?

Did you watch images of animals suffering with an open heart, and truly feel okay with it?

Or did you begin and end in the mind, while using certain rational defenses for why eating meat is morally defensible because of a desire to protect your self-image as a "righteous person" from your own personal judgements? And then did you work backward from the idea "I'm a righteous person", and then find a way to continue identifying as a "righteous person" by using mental gymnastics to find ways to justify meat-eating on a public forum where you can convince others (and thus yourself) that meat-eating is a defensible action and that you are still a "good and righteous" person?

My guess is the latter. 

So, my question is... Why does eating meat make you feel so guilty?

It doesnt matter how I confirmed it just like it doesnt matter to me if anyone believes I have confirmed other things, such as no-self, impermanence, etc so that is a moot point to me.

What makes you think eating meat makes me feel guilty? That is an assumption based on nothing I have said.

[Matt8800]

4 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

@Matt8800 I wouldn't rely on other devils if you haven't confirmed it for yourself. Being proclaimed an enlightened master doesn't mean you got it all figured out. 

We are talking about eating meat. There is no reason that someone's meat eating status has anything to do with "figuring it all out". Eat meat if you want or dont....its as simple as that.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Matt8800 said:

It doesnt matter how I confirmed it just like it doesnt matter to me if anyone believes I have confirmed other things, such as no-self, impermanence, etc so that is a moot point to me.

What makes you think eating meat makes me feel guilty? That is an assumption based on nothing I have said.

The reason why I think this is because of the fact that you made this thread in the first place, and seem to be very adamant about defending your decision to eat meat... even against people who didn't directly tell you that you shouldn't.

So, this indicates to me that there is perhaps a guilt about eating meat, because you're trying really hard to defend it even against people who aren't directly challenging you on it. So, you seem to be projecting some guilt and then trying to absolve yourself of that guilt.

[Matt8800]

2 hours ago, Cudin said:

What is the freaking difference between eating a person and a cow? The butchered meat look pretty much the same. Our physiological complexities are also very similar.

Is cannibalism ok?

Why is it ok to eat some animal and not others?

Would you have a raw meat diet?

Personally, I eat mainly cooked white meat, vegetables and drink lots of water because that is my preference for numerous reasons. I try to avoid the meat of animals with higher intelligence, such as pigs, for my own subjective reasons. I also try to avoid factory farmed meat where the animals may experience suffering in their conscious experience. I dont see the connection between suffering and a painless death however. I seems to me that typically only people that identify with the body make that connection. 

Social conditioning and biological hard-wiring largely determines what is "ok" for most people. As to what other people do or dont do, that is up to them. With that said, I will take whatever opportunity that may arise to encourage people to avoid cruelly farmed animal meat.

Regarding cannibalism, that is something I dont do so I dont have any comments about it other than I dont interfere with animals that have the intelligence to grow towards enlightenment. I personally believe only humans are the only animals that have the intelligence to see through the illusion of the body identification.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Matt8800

[Matt8800]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The reason why I think this is because of the fact that you made this thread in the first place, and seem to be very adamant about defending your decision to eat meat... even against people who didn't directly tell you that you shouldn't.

So, this indicates to me that there is perhaps a guilt about eating meat, because you're trying really hard to defend it even against people who aren't directly challenging you on it. So, you seem to be projecting some guilt and then trying to absolve yourself of that guilt.

I suppose that would be a natural assumption but that is incorrect.

I dont feel any need to defend my position but I do enjoy stimulating conversations. I think there is some inconsistencies between non-duality and people that insist others eat meat. 

As for vegetarians that just do it as a personal choice and dont cultivate personal aversion and judgement towards meat eaters, more power to them.

[Matt8800]

10 hours ago, Girzo said:

 

About the rest of the points. Sir, you are a devil.

Im a devil for eating meat? Would you say that Nisgardatta and Eckhart Tolle are also devils or does meat eating only make me a devil?

[Girzo]

@Matt8800 Not for eating meat, but for framing it in such a way.

Eckhart Tolle doesn't go around telling people how you can kill animals, because we are all one and in the end, their bodies are only a matter.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Girzo

[Matt8800]

20 minutes ago, Girzo said:

@Matt8800 Not for eating meat, but for framing it in such a way.

Eckhart Tolle doesn't go around telling people how you can kill animals, because we are all one and in the end, their bodies are only a matter.

 

 

Not only are their bodies merely matter, our own bodies are merely matter. We are not our bodies and pointing that out doesnt make me a devil.

I see a lot of judgement in the spiritual circles around this issue and I think it is a subject that deserves a discussion.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Matt8800

[Girzo]

It doesn't deserve discussion but bashing with a stick.

1 hour ago, Matt8800 said:

Not only are their bodies merely matter, our own bodies are merely matter.

Does that give you a right to kill other human beings?

Stop whitewashing unnecessary harm, which eating meat from animals is.

[alankrillin]

 

11 hours ago, alankrillin said:

 

You know what's good about smokers? 

Most of them know and accept it's a BS unhealthy thing to do, they've gained enough insight and all that's left in their defense is the addiction/bad habit that they can't seem to kick. 

Alan watts used to smoke and drink, guess we should start drinking and smoking now, must be a good thing if a great guru did it. 

 

 

[Matt8800]

42 minutes ago, Girzo said:

It doesn't deserve discussion but bashing with a stick.

Does that give you a right to kill other human beings?

Stop whitewashing unnecessary harm, which eating meat from animals is.

The Bhagavad Gita says that there is no "you" that can kill "them". Nobody dies and nobody kills. It is not the act that is "wrong", it is the motivation behind the act. 

Who is "harmed" and who is doing the harming? If a chicken is killed instantly, explain how this is "bad" from the chicken's perspective. 

Do you consider people that eat meat "bad"? If so, do you lump Nisgardatta and Tolle in with that group as "bad" people?

We agree that if a chicken is killed instantly, there is no conscious suffering. How can you claim something is "bad" if there is no suffering? (Before you compare a chicken to a human and a human's potential for enlightenment, I touched on that in an earlier response)

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Matt8800

[Matt8800]

9 minutes ago, alankrillin said:

 

You know what's good about smokers? 

Most of them know and accept it's a BS unhealthy thing to do, they've gained enough insight and all that's left in their defense is the addiction/bad habit that they can't seem to kick. 

Alan watts used to smoke and drink, guess we should start drinking and smoking now, must be a good thing if a great guru did it. 

 

 

People should do whatever they are going to do. If you feel you need to smoke and drink, then do it. As for me, I choose not to for health reasons.

[Girzo]

18 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

Do you consider people that eat meat "bad"? If so, do you lump Nisgardatta and Tolle in with that group as "bad" people?

They are less moral than someone who doesn't eat meat. Enlightenment doesn't make your human persona perfect.

Applying a non-dual perspective to relative problems is a definition of devilry. You can justify anything that way.

18 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

Who is "harmed" and who is doing the harming? If a chicken is killed instantly, explain how this is "bad" from the chicken's perspective. 

Can I cut your head off? I promise I will do it swiftly and you won't suffer. Your belief that humans are higher then other animals is an ungrounded assumption. 

To be clear, I am not against eating meat. I am against stupid arguments for it. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Girzo

[alankrillin]

24 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

The Bhagavad Gita says that there is no "you" that can kill "them". Nobody dies and nobody kills. It is not the act that is "wrong", it is the motivation behind the act. 

Who is "harmed" and who is doing the harming? If a chicken is killed instantly, explain how this is "bad" from the chicken's perspective. 

Do you consider people that eat meat "bad"? If so, do you lump Nisgardatta and Tolle in with that group as "bad" people?

 

It's simple it's better to eat things that dont value their lives as a sentient being, chickens value their life they will run and fight to save their lives. 

Apply the same principles on yourself then and just kill yourself. From my perspective it's much better if you die and in the process the 10,000 animals you will eat in your life span either didn't exist merely to be food in cages or die to carnivores instead if they were wild. 

A lion eating meat is fine because it will die otherwise, a human on the other hand wont die but decides to be a glutton and devour many animals on pleasure eating.

So if there is no wrong or right,  good or bad then I take that principle to the extreme and say that we should just kill humans who eat meat , it doesn't matter if they value their lives, only stupid humans anyway and we'll give them a quick death. 

Please if we were to kill you right now as a real scenario you'd cry and beg for your life. 

So tell why are you so bias when it comes to your own life. But so selfish when it's not your life on the line.

This is this exactly how the selfish ego works. 

If you could take both perspectives of you and the chicken at the same time you wouldn't kill yourself if you had options. 

But if you knew that one of you must die then you'd sacrifice the weaker self for the stronger self. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by alankrillin

[Shadowraix]

3 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

We are talking about eating meat. There is no reason that someone's meat eating status has anything to do with "figuring it all out". Eat meat if you want or dont....its as simple as that.

Not what I was saying. Was more that bringing up what other people say as some sort of point isn't really a good one. It's putting blind faith into proclaimed enlightened masters. If you figured it out for yourself you wouldn't need to use them as a reference to back up the disagreement.