Advice on approaching Women

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, now is forever said:

@Emerald yes you are right - most girls are too polite...

Yeah. Most of the time, if I'm approached I smile and say thank you to be polite and keep the situation friendly. So, I can see why Leo thought that it would really make a woman's day to hear that. But it's almost like running a script like you would at the mall with the kiosk sales-people who are offering free samples and stuff like that. 

[now is forever]

@Emerald maybe you could make a video about rejecting guys in a more effective way, if you haven’t already - maybe then the cold approach would make some sense.

@Orcoda you look like a nice guy - if you are as nice as you look it won’t hurt starting with cold approach. after one or two rejections it will maybe already annoy you to start with the same sentence. but realize don’t do it for the outcome do it for the fun. and don’t do it with girls like emerald and me because you’ll either get an annoyed smile or an eyebrow frown. and also would be good to not try it with girls who look like they’ll wanna hit you. (except if you are explicitly into that)

Edited February 2, 2019 by now is forever

[Emerald]

32 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@Emerald maybe you could make a video about rejecting guys in a more effective way, if you haven’t already - maybe then the cold approach would make some sense.

Nah. It would be a little off-brand for my channel. 

But I do think cold approach makes sense from a male perspective. It just is kind of meh from a female perspective.

So, my main issue is that men don't really know how it's perceived from the receiving end. So, some inexperienced guy could hear what Leo said, and assume that that approach is rare and generally appreciated, when it's usually neither. 

[d0ornokey]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

any random woman and tell her that you just thought she was beautiful, and she will be so happy.

 

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously don't lie about it, it must be genuine.

 

Yo shit. 

[Vercingetorix]

@Emerald are you the average woman? the way you react is not necessarily how most women react. 
My experience is that when I'm in the right energy or "state", most women will respond very positively to a Sincere compliment. It's because of the energy and the value I give.

But there are definitely more effective ways to approach. if you want to understand it better you can watch this:

 

[Leo Gura]

@Emerald What you're missing is that attraction is not a rational choice.

See, you're evaluating this whole situation theoretically, which is not at all how it works in real life. In real life, if a well-dressed, nice-looking guy with a big smile, confidence, and swagger stopped you while you were walking down the street and told you he found you attractive and had a fun conversation with you, all of your logic would fly out the window. It doesn't matter if he's "using a pickup line" on 100 other girls. A good approach is a good approach. The line is irrelevant. The words never matter. It's all in the tone and body language. You would be flattered, your self-esteem would be boosted, and maybe you'd get attracted to him. Attraction is never a guarantee. Often the chemistry just doesn't happen. But attraction is not something you logically decide upon. It happens near-instantly based on deep subconscious cues. Attraction happens within 5 minutes. Within 5 minutes the girl determines and demonstrates whether she's willing to sleep with the guy. The rest is just comfort-building. But she is not conscious of any of this. It all happens automatically.

What you're not factoring into your theory is that that guy could actually attract you! If you're being fake polite, etc. that means he hasn't succeeded in attracting you. You've succeeding in rejecting him. His job was to bust through your automatic knee-jerk defense mechanism. He must do that through charm, confidence, and humor, not through meeting any logical criteria you have. Obviously if you're already married with a kid, you are much less open to approaches. But consider if you were single. (BTW, if the guy knows what he's doing, he'll check your finger for a wedding ring before even approaching you).

Attraction is a very counter-intuitive thing. Be careful underestimating it or logically analyzing it. There is zero logic in attraction. It does not happen based on any rational standards that you may think you have. Which is precisely why girls easily get attracted to scrubs who abuse them, and yet the girl only gets more attracted!

And even if an approach is a nuisance, this cannot be avoided because the guy has to approach the girl because the girl will almost never approach the guy. Yes, the girl incurs the cost of a creepy approach. On the other hand, the girl is freed of the hell that is approaching. You girls have no idea what it takes to make a natural approach or to be rejected dozen times in a row. You should be thankful you don't have to do it.

It is the guy's job to approach and the girl's job to screen him for quality. That is how human mating works. Not unlike the courtship rituals of birds.

Part of the cost of being a hot girl is that you will get approach a lot. That's both a blessing and curse. And you're not going to change that. Guys are wired to approach you. And you're wired to screen them.

The thing with approaching is that it's not supposed to work 95% of the time. 5% is all it takes for love to happen It is just like sales. And sales works precisely because people buy.

[Elisabeth]

On 31. 1. 2019 at 10:13 AM, Jed Vassallo said:

I've always agreed with most everything Leo has said when giving advice, but gotta disagree here. If you want low-consciousness women, who may be vapid, self-absorbed, money-focused, looks-focused, and everything is all about them, then sure go to bars and nightclubs. And please, please don't just go walking up and hitting on women on the streets or in in cafes. This is bad advice IMO . This has been what women have been trying to tell men forever. Do not just walk up and force your will into a woman's space, uninvited. This happen to them all the firkin time. It's harassment, not romantic. *(see video). Sure, all you're doing is being a nice guy and trying to get to know the girl, to see if there is a spark, but so is every other guy. Women wear headphones as a way of stopping every guy from hitting on her, so she can sit in a café and have some peace. Don't be *that* guy. 

Don't 'hit on' women. Just make friends. Treat everyone around you the same. Show interest in everyone. Listen to them. Be engaged with everyone equally. Not just with the ones you want to have sex with. Women hate being hit on, but hey do like being treated equally. If you are engaging, not focusing all your attention solely on them (which can make some women very uncomfortable), charming, are a good listener, and are showing legitimate interest in them (not just as a possible sex acquisition), they'll most definitely take notice of you. If they are available, and in the space for the possibility, they'll let you know they're interested. Get their contact info (social media, like fakebook, is best to start. Phone number is much too ''guy hitting on her'), to continue to be friends. If they're interested, they'll follow up with wanting to get together in some capacity. Or not, and you have to be ok with that. No attachment. If the friendship progresses into a romance, it will happen thru nature flow. If not, you still have an awesome female friend. It's win win. The key is, let go of expectations, be open, not focused on outcomes. Just focus on being the best you, and you'll have no problem whatsoever in attracting amazing women to you. 
 

 

Thank you for that post. 

All my relationships started out as friendships, or at least acquaintances form common hobbies. I first had to observe the guy in a social setting, sometimes for quite some time before I started to like him, then he could ask me out. If he was to ask me out after the first 10min conversation, I'd be like "eh, that's weird". 

I'm not saying approaching can never work, but it's certainly not the only way. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Elisabeth

[Elisabeth]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald

And even if an approach is a nuisance, this cannot be avoided because the guy has to approach the girl because the girl will almost never approach the guy. Yes, the girl incurs the cost of a creepy approach. On the other hand, the girl is freed of the hell that is approaching. You girls have no idea what it takes to make a natural approach or to be rejected dozen times in a row. You should be thankful you don't have to do it.

It is the guy's job to approach and the girl's job to screen him for quality. That is how human mating works. Not unlike the courtship rituals of birds.

1

I think this is a very American belief. To the very least, this is strongly influenced by culture. 

In Prague... I'm almost never being approached by random strangers. (And if I am, they are usually American, Italian or Turkish ... and I hate it).  People usually date someone they met through their extended social circle (well, nowadays dating apps also work). Sure, the guy is still expected to make the "first move", but it's usually only after both people have had a chance to get to know each other a little, and some nonverbal signals of mutual liking have been exchanged. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Elisabeth

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald What you're missing is that attraction is not a rational choice.

See, you're evaluating this whole situation theoretically, which is not at all how it works in real life. In real life, if a well-dressed, nice-looking guy with a big smile, confidence, and swagger stopped you while you were walking down the street and told you he found you attractive and had a fun conversation with you, all of your logic would fly out the window. It doesn't matter if he's "using a pickup line" on 100 other girls. A good approach is a good approach. The line is irrelevant. The words never matter. It's all in the tone and body language. You would be flattered, your self-esteem would be boosted, and maybe you'd get attracted to him. Attraction is never a guarantee. Often the chemistry just doesn't happen. But attraction is not something you logically decide upon. It happens near-instantly based on deep subconscious cues. Attraction happens within 5 minutes. Within 5 minutes the girl determines and demonstrates whether she's willing to sleep with the guy. The rest is just comfort-building. But she is not conscious of any of this. It all happens automatically.

What you're not factoring into your theory is that that guy could actually attract you! If you're being fake polite, etc. that means he hasn't succeeded in attracting you. You've succeeding in rejecting him. His job was to bust through your automatic knee-jerk defense mechanism. He must do that through charm, confidence, and humor, not through meeting any logical criteria you have. Obviously if you're already married with a kid, you are much less open to approaches. But consider if you were single. (BTW, if the guy knows what he's doing, he'll check your finger for a wedding ring before even approaching you).

Attraction is a very counter-intuitive thing. Be careful underestimating it or logically analyzing it. There is zero logic in attraction. It does not happen based on any rational standards that you may think you have. Which is precisely why girls easily get attracted to scrubs who abuse them, and yet the girl only gets more attracted!

And even if an approach is a nuisance, this cannot be avoided because the guy has to approach the girl because the girl will almost never approach the guy. Yes, the girl incurs the cost of a creepy approach. On the other hand, the girl is freed of the hell that is approaching. You girls have no idea what it takes to make a natural approach or to be rejected dozen times in a row. You should be thankful you don't have to do it.

It is the guy's job to approach and the girl's job to screen him for quality. That is how human mating works. Not unlike the courtship rituals of birds.

Part of the cost of being a hot girl is that you will get approach a lot. That's both a blessing and curse. And you're not going to change that. Guys are wired to approach you. And you're wired to screen them.

The thing with approaching is that it's not supposed to work 95% of the time. 5% is all it takes for love to happen It is just like sales. And sales works precisely because people buy.

My issue is not that men approach. I don't really have an issue with men using cold approach. As I said, I see why it's popular for men to use that method because it helps them cast the net wider and be more likely to get a yes. But, I'm generally unresponsive to them because they are a lot like pop-up ads. That said, I understand that pop-up ads exist because they do work sometimes on some people.

Also, you're talking to a bisexual woman about how I should be glad that I don't have to approach. Try approaching someone when there's a 90+% chance that they don't even have the "right" sexual orientation, and do it in a very conservative area. So, I empathize with men in this way. 

So, my issue is with you saying that it's rare, when it is not rare at all for a guy to approach with that line and level of straightforwardness. And to say that it would be flattering for most women and would "make their day" even if they say no, when this is misleading on both fronts. It's actually very common, and is mostly a nuisance to most women most of the time.

I have been female for my entire life and I've also been approached by men I know and strangers probably over 500 times. This even feels like a modest estimate. So, none of this is being approached theoretically, but comes from about 16 years of being on the receiving end of both warm and cold approaches. And I'm telling you that your advice in this situation sucks. And a lot of young and inexperienced guys are going to listen to you and fail.

So, I know that attraction isn't a logical choice. But it is never instant. It takes a while to coalesce. I've never had an instantaneous attraction to a guy... it normally floats up to the surface after a few days of having known him. I'm sure a lot of women are more open to cold approaches, but I think your method is ham-fisted and will make you seem very common, especially if you think that women are really flattered when you're that straightforward because of the "rarity" of it. I know I would just think you were a buster.

 

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

@Emerald are you the average woman? the way you react is not necessarily how most women react. 
My experience is that when I'm in the right energy or "state", most women will respond very positively to a Sincere compliment. It's because of the energy and the value I give.

But there are definitely more effective ways to approach. if you want to understand it better you can watch this:
 

I would say that I am an average woman in the way that I respond to being approached on the street. Most women that I know don't really respond to cold approach, and find it to generally be a nuisance. This makes sense from a biological level, because warm approach is often a lot safer and they're able to better screen their potential partners for indicators of stability, which is important for a bond that may lead to children in the future.

That said, a sizable minority of women are open to it, even if many of them still find it annoying most of the time. So, a guy who does pick-up will be able to eventually find someone to say yes. And this is why I understand that men do it. Warm approach makes it harder for a man to find a partner, so I understand why it is not prefered.

But what bothers me is the idea that most women like this and are responsive to cold approach when most of them are not. Most women are just annoyed by it regardless of who does it and how it's done. This is why I said that cold approach is mostly "meh" for women, especially if it's very blunt and straightforward like Leo suggested. The more subtle a man can be with his cold approach and making it feel more like warm approach, the better the experience will be for the woman.

So, even if there's more success with women to be had for a man using cold approach, this doesn't mean that it's women's preference or that it suits women's needs and desires. It's just that some are willing to make due with cold approach, and men doing cold approach will eventually find them.

[Guided]

2 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

I think this is a very American belief. To the very least, this is strongly influenced by culture. 

In Prague... I'm almost never being approached by random strangers. (And if I am, they are usually American, Italian or Turkish ... and I hate it).  People usually date someone they met through their extended social circle (well, nowadays dating apps also work). Sure, the guy is still expected to make the "first move", but it's usually only after both people have had a chance to get to know each other a little, and some nonverbal signals of mutual liking have been exchanged. 

This is true. I'm from the Czech Republic and have lived for extended periods of time in the UK and Indonesia and I noticed that man-to-woman courtship progresses differently country to country.

In the Czech Republic, it's almost exclusively through common friends, unless you're already a man with high social proof applicable to most social settings, like a public figure or something. Good luck approaching a girl without it and by yourself, you would need that extra edge to truly make that work, especially in Prague, unless you're talking to a tourist.

This, of course, is a crass generalisation, as there are certain sub-cultures which I came across where this kind of approach is welcomed.

The Czechs are not as open to cold approaches as the British for example, where a British woman is likely to be open to be approached by another British male, as there is this distinct 'small-talk' culture where it's normal to just start talking to a stranger. Again, not applicable to women of a different origin living or travelling in the UK.

The small-talk culture is surprisingly similar to Indonesia, where young women are VERY open to direct approaches, especially if you are a white man, which build instant attraction with most women. And even then, it is incredibly common for an Indonesian male and female to just start talking lightheartedly, which may or may not lead to attraction. (The attraction of Indonesian women to White and Arabic men is an interesting phenomenon that is worth paying attention to. It bears answers.)

In my personal experience, I haven't had much luck finding a girlfriend in the UK or the Czech Republic, but had numerous encounters and a beautiful relationship in Indonesia and was under constant female attention, simply because I'm white and have distinct facial features, which bears certain high-status connotations with it, instantly attracting most women. This was supported by me being aware of this fact, which completely changed the way I approached women and made me much more comfortable in those situations. (This is not applicable to all Indonesian women, you need extra social proof and authenticity for the super hot and high standing women.)

It needs to be said though, while I've undergone change of course, it was not a substantial one in terms of putting effort toward making myself more attractive, even when I travelled back and forth between Europe and Indonesia in the time span of two years. Yet, the experiences (or success if you would like) I was having with women were like two different worlds!

So why was I more attractive to Indonesian women than I ever could be to most European women?

Thus i came to learn that while attraction itself is indeed hard-wired into human biology, as to what actually sparks that attraction is exclusively related to social structures and beliefs.

The social aspect of attraction is an important snippet of the whole process that should not be overlooked.

It is the main reason why two different women would react differently to a man's approach, even if it was almost the same. That is why any statement that goes along the lines of 'most guys/girls would/wouldn't find this attractive' is moot. Which kinda breaks the entire point I was making, as generalisation and conventionalising is the only way to talk about this topic without actually sharing specific personal experiences, with all the details included!

Edited February 3, 2019 by Guided
grammar

[DrewNows]

54 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, I know that attraction isn't a logical choice. But it is never instant. It takes a while to coalesce. I've never had an instantaneous attraction to a guy... it normally floats up to the surface after a few days of having known him. I'm sure a lot of women are more open to cold approaches, but I think your method is ham-fisted and will make you seem very common, especially if you think that women are really flattered when you're that straightforward because of the "rarity" of it. I know I would just think you were a buster.

How do you feel level of attraction is influenced by one's beliefs? Doesn't it start with physical attraction once you have given enough attention to the other individual? I find it hard to believe you could not feel some sort of attraction for someone within the first few minutes of meeting, at least subconsciously 

[Emerald]

Just now, DrewNows said:

How do you feel level of attraction is influenced by one's beliefs? Doesn't it start with physical attraction once you have given enough attention to the other individual? I find it hard to believe you could not feel some sort of attraction for someone within the first few minutes of meeting, at least subconsciously 

I think it comes down to going through the motions of being approached and there being a conditioned response of "Ah. This again."

So, it's kind of like, most women (at least in America) are used to being approached all the time. So, there is no sense of scarcity relative to male attention, and there have been many experiences with lukewarm guys who are just players.

And then, at 16 or 17,  realizing that giving a guy like that a try is not really worth the time. And just trying to get through the day.

Now, if I were at a club or bar, I'd probably be more responsive to cold approach because of the nature of that setting. But if a guy just randomly tries to chat me up on the street or at the grocery store, it's just a bit annoying and my natural response is to just get on with my day and move on without hurting the guy's feelings... which is uncomfortable as well.

So, I don't think it's possible at this point, knowing what I know and having experienced what I've experienced, to really buy into a pick-up attempt. It's kind of like how you know someone is trying to sell you something, and the main focus becomes finding a way to end the conversation.

But as for your other question... Personally, it always takes a while for a real attraction to set in. In the initial few minutes, I'll know if I find him physically attractive or not. But a physically attractive guy will become repulsive and ugly if his character is poor. While some other average looking guy, who maybe didn't catch my eye initially will grow on me over the course of days or weeks. So, the initial few minutes is not enough to give a good indicator of attraction as the attraction needs to simmer for a while to really reveal the chemistry or lack-there-of. 

 

[now is forever]

@Emerald i wonder what i would find funny if approached in the grocery store - something like: i really like your brokkoli.

[DrewNows]

@Emerald Much appreciated reading your response! 

So I’d have to conclude the escalation of openness and attraction can be influenced by the beliefs you hold 

Personality type and reading people can also play a big role. If you spend enough time with someone over the course of a day you’d probably know your compatibility 

personally in a public area such as a grocery store I find it’s most effective to  read subtle cues of attraction (eye contact, smile etc) before doing any kind of approach. But if you’re one to chit chat with strangers, being open, expressive and seeking opinions is great way to start a conversation  

 

 

[DrewNows]

8 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@Emerald i wonder what i would find funny if approached in the grocery store - something like: i really like your brokkoli.

Better yet. “Eww I don’t like your ?, would you like an ?”  

[now is forever]

@DrewNows that’s too sexistic - won’t work - brokkoli is asexual.

[Emerald]

31 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@Emerald Much appreciated reading your response! 

So I’d have to conclude the escalation of openness and attraction can be influenced by the beliefs you hold 

Personality type and reading people can also play a big role. If you spend enough time with someone over the course of a day you’d probably know your compatibility 

personally in a public area such as a grocery store I find it’s most effective to  read subtle cues of attraction (eye contact, smile etc) before doing any kind of approach. But if you’re one to chit chat with strangers, being open, expressive and seeking opinions is great way to start a conversation  

Certainly. When I was 11 and 12, my impression of male attention was that it was scarce. So, I was always really excited if I was shown any affirmative male attention, because I thought it meant something about me. Like, "Wow! He really likes me!"

But once I got to be about 15 or so, I realized that male attention is not scarce at all and that their interest in me doesn't have anything to do with me as an individual the VAST majority of times. So, I just installed a mental spam filter over the vast majority of male attention. And all cold approaches from strangers automatically go into my spam folder.

So, it is a filter of belief... but it's a useful one for avoiding pick-up artists and players and those who are lukewarm.

[Girzo]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

their interest in me doesn't have anything to do with me as an individual

No shit, they have only known you for 5 minutes too. That's why you go on dates.

If you are satisfied with your dating life as it is, then of course you will not be interested in being cold approached. But still there are girls with less options who would love to get more attention.

[now is forever]

@Girzo well but that’s the way a lot of girls make their decision, it’s the millisecond question. about me or about his dick?

it’s more interesting when a little bit of intellect shines through.

in germany cold approach on the streets is also really not common anymore - so if guys do it it’s usually because they really find you attractive more than average then. it’s a dream girl approach. and while talking about spirituality - a lot of women can sense if it’s fake.

i wonder how much guys would like to go out with girls who go out with any guy who asks them, without discernment. alone that, should bring the quality of an approach up.

Edited February 3, 2019 by now is forever