What's wrong with being happy but unconscious?

[Paul92]

@TheAvatarState It is manipulation. He says as much. He's just proving that anyone can be manipulated into believing anything. The believing brain, if you will. 

The thing is, not a single one of you on this thread have any idea of the absolute hell I am living through right now. Where's anyone's humanity. Que Leo saying there is no humanity. 

[TheAvatarState]

14 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

He's just proving that anyone can be manipulated into believing anything. The believing brain, if you will. 

Good insight. It's true. 

14 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

The thing is, not a single one of you on this thread have any idea of the absolute hell I am living through right now.

You think none of us have suffered? Where's your humility?

[Sagatarius]

@Paul92 I am actually aware (to the extent i can be) of the hell you are living throughb right now. I've seen a lot of your posts, it seems to me you rushed knee deep into all of this when it wasn't the best time, by never mind you are here now. It feels like your reality is falling apart doesn't it? Sounds like you caught the dark knight of the soul to Me. This is all only temporary like all suffering is. Since your OCD is making you obsess to this i don't think i could ever convince you to go stop this and seek professional therapy or help to work on your shadow. If you had a healthy head space in the first place then none of this should have been this extestentially, emotionally, and psychologically threatening as it is to you now.

I don't have OCD, but we all have our own quirks that you'll manage if and overcome if you are ready. I have ADHD, and i'm on the High spectrum of autism i found everything in school impossible because i couldn't concentrate, thst led to emotional problems, and low  self-esteem issues as well as depression/anxieties, and it didn't help to have an opressive, manipulative, emotionally, verbally and physically abusive father. Then i had to face school bullies. But im here now and im not doing too bad these days. i can only see myself getting bettern. 

You'll figure all this out, your identity and your existential reassurance will kid back in, your either just going tonhave to battle throguh all this, or you are going to need to stop and repair your shadow side of you. 

 

 

[oysterman]

I mostly write this post for any other people suffering and freaking out from enlightenment-related psychological discomfort. It is not always appropriate to 'push through' and keep self-inquiring.

I know you all mean well and want this Paul92 to get enlightened and get through this stuff.

But, I'm frankly appalled at some of the advice that was given in this thread. Including from @Leo Gura. (Leo - I only namedrop you because you are very respected in this forum, and many who read this tend to take your word as law, regardless of your repeated disclaimers against this.) Leo has given plenty of relevant advice concerning this topic, but it is dispersed, so I wanted to address this topic here in case someone in need stumbles upon it.

In some of the advice given in this thread, I saw very little concern for mental health, and for sustainable spiritual growth. Yes, for some people it might be useful to "power through" uncomfortable spiritual stages like depersonalisation. You could come out of it the other side, with great insights into the nature of being and reality. But for many, pushing through while you are totally freaked out by enlightenment work could be extremely costly. And could prolong the ordeal unnecessarily. If someone has got this much discomfort from some enlightenment work, they already have plenty to integrate into their lives. After this integration, they can go back to the work.

Some of the comments here stink of an unhealthy obsession with spiritual growth, at the cost of all else. Without looking at the bigger picture, and all the factors at play. Reminiscent of an unhealthy manifestation of stage orange materialism. I think Paul92 will be totally fine, but not because of some of the advice given in this thread. Please consider the individual context before applying some spiritual advice that doesn't necessarily correspond to the nuances of the situation.

What if we have a reader on this thread, who isn't posting, who is in a similar but more distressed state than Paul92? Be careful of the advice you give. It could mess somebody up big time. Why did nobody suggest that Paul92, or someone in a similar situation to him, retreat to lick his wounds? Or at least outline this as a viable option in this situation?

To "lick one's wounds" in this state, it might be advisable to reduce meditation to a small quantity of a very grounding technique (like mindfulness). To cease all deliberate self-inquiry for the time being. To carry on, as best you can, with your life and the things you love doing.

Humanity IS compatible with many paths towards spiritual growth.

Also, why aren't people congratulating this man, for achieving much joy in a non-enlightened life? Don't tell me that life is all rainbows and butterflies after enlightenment. You can be enlightened and a miserable human, or you can cultivate a joyful life. Neither of these will really affect your transcendent, true nature.

Everyone, please give well-rounded advice if you are going to write anything at all.

Much love from a fellow human manifestation.

[Forestluv]

@oysterman There are different ways to interpret situations and different approaches toward spiritual growth. I appreciate your perspective - in particular about trying to understand the relative mind-body state of the individual, the importance of devoting time to integration, the value of slowing down when intensity reaches a breaking point and using a gentle approach in some situations.  My impression of the situation presented here overlaps with yours, yet also differs a bit. I sense that there is considerable discomfort, yet not to the same intensity as you. Discomfort can be a huge asset in spiritual development, it can also be a huge deterrent. I would agree with you that this thread of advice could use a bit more support, connection and empathy to be balanced. In general, I think the forum can get a bit tilted toward head-centered awakening at the expense of heart-centered awakening. As well, a tilt toward masculine energy over feminine energy. A more supportive / empathetic approach can be helpful, yet it could also allow one to get back to into a comfort zone and lose momentum. . . 

[Paul92]

@oysterman Much appreciated. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe I can just drop all this for now. I can't stop questioning everything. It's like I've got smeone sat on my shoulder interjecting within everything I do. I've never felt like this, ever.

I know I have OCD, but a lot of people on here don't believe in mental illnesses. Maybe this is born out of OCD, I don't know.

I just want to forget it all and go back to how I was.

Every day is a battle. I can't get out of bed in a morning. I don't really have any appetite. I've lot enjoyment in everything... I can't watch sports or TV because I just think people aren't real, I'm in a weird dream, nothing has any meaning. I feel so detatched.

I've been single for years. I met a girl on Friday and she's talking to me. She seems great, but I'm struggling to see why I should go on with it if she's just an illusion or whatever. I know people have said I need to get this out of my head, but it ain't easy.  If we aren't individuals, then it makes everything redundant, surely?

 

[Kazman]

This reminds me of what Ken Wilber often talks about. The differences between waking up, growing up and cleaning up.

Roughly, waking up=spiritual eblightenment, growing up=spiral dynamics progress, cleaning up= shadow work.

Most esoteric wisdom traditions do not cover shadow work, or cleaning up, because they are about detachment, and disidentification.

it wasn’t until psychotherapy came along this last century that humanity got better tools for shadow work, where you actually have to IDENTIFY with and accept your shortcomings or anxieties to become free from them. Maybe that’s something you need right now.

i think it was in this video:

On a contradictory note: I also remember a quote from Maurice Nicoll, a Gurdjieff guy, it went something like: ”if you say you don’t like this work and it makes you suffer immensenly, why are you identifying with those objections and sufferings?”

the point is that any suffering resulting from contemplation is not authentic either and can be used as more material for meditation. It doesn’t sound like that’s the advice you need right now, but it can help you detach from suffering in some cases and make it lose its power over you.

[Saarah]

3 hours ago, Paul92 said:

 If we aren't individuals, then it makes everything redundant, surely?

That is a projection from your mind which will just complicate things. We're already dead but everything still continues to happen, all the thoughts, personalities, emotions etc. they continue and the experience is alive. Maybe just the egoic perspective becomes redundant, things like seeing separation but not everything will become redundant, it's just that ego is usually all of our perspective, that's perhaps why you feel everything will be redundant, but of course the ego isn't everything.

Just keep diving into the contrast of life and it will continue to push you in the right direction in your own time, you can't force the wanting for spiritual growth but you can always continue observing life until the natural desire arises. You're lucky though that you know about this stuff to put things in context or through comparison, that will help you a lot.

[Mu_]

On 1/27/2019 at 10:44 AM, Aakash said:

@Mu_ how many people are spritually active in your opinion? that love their life simply because their alive. i know non personally. 

Hey Aakash,

Simply loving ones life for being alive and feeling like your life is pretty good or alright with some struggles, but you manage, are very different things.  I and a lot of people I've met on the spiritual path including teachers have a common narrative that people for the most part are heavily suffering, unconscious and will never really be happy.  I use to see people this way and just believed it, I was raised with this view as well since my parents were spiritual seekers.

Fast forward to the last 7+ years after having a number of awakenings and understandings and I see the world VERY differently.  The major suffering that I once saw on everyones faces is much more nuanced or not there at all.  Sure people go through shit, but how each person relates to this is different.  I believe a lot of people are just content (within their own definitions to say so) or "ok" or "Ok" but know things could be better, but not agonizing over the fact.  Data suggests its in the 50-60% range.  Some people are getting some sort of enjoyment or temporary satisfaction from jobs, relationships, kids, home buying, vacations.  A lot of these people if asked the "how is your life question" wether to oneself or from another like the surveys I mentioned will and do say its alright, could be better, but its ok, lifes not without suffering and struggle.  And the studies show this, and I could relate to this at one point.  This is not to say that at any moment a person could no longer find these things enjoyable and find lack in their life, but majority aren't in the depressed, really suffering stages.

And again, this is just what I've gathered and reflected on.  Ultimately we cant gather all people in a room and make a accurate estimation of this question.  But these surveys bring up some interesting questions about just how much "suffering" there is and what exactly is a content person, because if you put a criteria on happiness, then you may get different answer, but if the "general" person feels like their life is ok for what ever reason that is, even if "you" think or see them acting in ways that you feel say are otherwise, they still may just feel generally "okish" inside and aren't troubled in their own internal world to the extent that would make them think there life is shit, not worth living, empty, meaningless, etc (sure these feelings/thoughts may come up for periods, but thats just human and each person handles those moments in different ways).  Sure they may want more, and will feel like more will make them more happy, but they still feel "good" enough to report they are satisfied with their lives or are just "meh".

Edited January 28, 2019 by Mu_

[Pouya]

@Paul92 It's all ok paul. I've gone 3 months without any spirituality to recover and come back with a greater prespective and wiser approach. Just recover and comeback stronger.

 

Remember cooking a frog slowly is easier than throwing it into the boiling water

Edited January 28, 2019 by Pouya

[Pouya]

@Paul92 The most influential concept that helped me A LOT in my journey was Actuality. Drop the idea of illusion and the dream world. Are ideas the truth?

[lostmedstudent]

On 2019-01-25 at 4:16 AM, Enlightenment said:

Enlighten person can have personality disorder

LOL

[lostmedstudent]

@Paul92 you can consider this « journey » something that unravelled your unhappiness. How could you truly have been happy if discovering these things suddenly  makes you miserable . Your unhappiness was probably already there and this self discovery lifted up the veil. 

So now that you think you are no longer happy, get on the journey and you will never look back  

[oysterman]

@Serotoninluv Good words

I'd like to say, on behalf of everyone, good luck to Paul. It can sure be hard to go through these things, but lots of us have gone through weeks or months of this shit and come out better on the other side <3