Subcultures (Trigger Warning)

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Wyze said:

I wanted to discuss groups like Incels, MGTOW, Alt-right, SJW etc

There are a growing number of groups that hold extreme ideologies and beliefs. I wanted to know why is our society (assuming we are at Blue/Orange) is producing such groups.

I understand the internet have a way of grouping people together, but what is causing people to form such opinions/worldviews in the first place?

I understand this is a sensitive topic; we are not here to start a debate on who is right. I am interested in genuine talk about sociology and spiral dynamics. Thanks.

Right now the collective shadow is coming to a head in a way that I've not yet seen before in my lifetime.

And so, many people afflicted by the collective shadow are forming communities of pain that mirror in a very clear way what's always lurked under the surface in terms of racism, sexism, homophobia, and a whole host of ideas that are in opposition to the feminine principle and Divine Feminine in general. And they are meeting because of the internet and algorithms bringing them together, and even helps them become more normalized.

It allows those who are less afflicted by the collective shadow to become more aware of the problems by seeing so many groups pop up based around low self-esteem, hatred, bigotry, misogyny, victim's mentality, and the like. And to realize that the current structure isn't serving us any longer. And this will encourage progress and change in the future that will lead to a world with fewer hegemonic structures and a social structure that is more in harmony with nature.

But many of these people who are less afflicted by the shadow and see the issues of the collective shadow, don't really know what to do with what they're seeing. So, many of them get angry and jump up and down like yo yos... or they wear their resistance to these communities of pain as a badge of virtue while not really noticing that these groups of people are in deep psychological turmoil and that to get rid of the issues, those emotional issues have to be properly addressed instead of throwing a high horse at it.

They lack the systemic thinking needed to know that you can't solve this issue with reason and good talking points, as those in opposition are dealing with some really heavy and deeply ingrained psychological patterns that are affecting all of the collective in some form or another. In order to actually solve the issue, you actually have to find healthier ways for these communities of pain to address their pain because right now they only have all the toxic manosphere and the Alt-Righty stuff, which doesn't properly serve anyone.

But many people are now doing the work of examining this social phenomenon, and what is now not known will become more mainstream as more information trickles down to the masses. And in twenty years, we will probably collectively understand a lot more on the practical and metaphysical level what is transpiring. 

Until then, just be open minded and keep your finger to the pulse, and it will be really clear what needs to happen in order for society to progress.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Emerald

[CreamCat]

26 minutes ago, Emerald said:

a social structure that is more in harmony with nature.

Everything that's happening happens because they are already allowed by nature. Environmental destruction of earth is allowed by nature, too.

27 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Until then, just be open minded and keep your finger to the pulse, and it will be really clear what needs to happen in order for society to progress.

I don't know what will be clear. Whatever happens, stick to your life purpose.

[Forestluv]

@Emerald Do you think a higher societal consciousness is arising that is aware of the underlying trauma and pain fueling unhealthy subcultures? If so, that could help recontextualuze the problem and allow some healing.

[TheAvatarState]

@Wyze The reason you're triggered by them, and the reason they keep coming up for you, is because you don't understand them. Watch Leo's latest 2-part Cult video. That was literally the subject of them, and your questions should be answered. If you've watched them and are still confused, then let me know and I'll try to explain it. But there really should be no need.

[Zizzero]

21 minutes ago, Wyze said:

I feel like each one of those subculture is a counter movement towards something and could be counter movement towards each other. But theres no conversation to tie it all together.

 

Fully agree. There's a polarization going on which
a) prevents people from listening to one another and
b) creates a vicious, warlike atmosphere where opinions are not anymore something one can simply agree or disagree with; there's a strong moral attachment; if you're against X, you're evil or if you're for Y, you're dumb etc. People are being reduced to nothing but their political beliefs.

24 minutes ago, Wyze said:

@Zizzero Well to start off with; if you see the reaction to the new series of Doctor Who; claiming its too PC and blaming SJWs and feminism. So here this example, its affecting mass media. Another example is the Gillette ad which caused so much backlash.

The Incel movement holds some very dangerous ideologies: blackpill, call for government controlled rape etc? (some of this is very dangerous and costs lives) ..... And opposing this you have #Metoo movement.

Here's where we share different views:
You write: "claiming its too PC and blaming SJWs and feminism.", "very dangerous ideologies". How about: Those people have different personalities, had different experiences and have simply different value systems than you. Maybe they are right and Doctor Who is too PC, maybe feminism is a threat to be stopped, and maybe their ideologies are rather help- than hurtful to our society. 
My question to you is: Why aren't you becoming a blackpill-supporter? The reason why you wont become a blackpill-supporter or feminist or MGTOW is the same reason the supporters of those movements wont leave their ideology behind. They, same you and me, - I assume we share similar opinions about those movements - believe that they are right and that the others who they or we diagree with are dangerous or that they need to wake up to some sort and see how things actually are. 
My claim is; through our lenses some things are clearly better than others. BUT, only through our lenses. Only through those lenses should an incel stay away from blackpill-beliefs. A feminist is a feminist because based on her experiences, values, conditioning and character that is the ideology that is obviously correct in her eyes. And just as much as I cannot see myself become a feminist, she probably can't see herself stop being a feminist. 
To get back to my question: Why aren't you becoming a blackpill-supporter? How do you know that you are right and they are wrong?

[Toby]

2 hours ago, Wyze said:

I wanted to discuss groups like Incels, MGTOW, Alt-right, SJW etc

totally agree. They should all join our Advaita-SD-Zen-Kriya-Yoga group instead. because there is 0% fundamentalism / belief-system in this forum.

[Anton Rogachevski]

Systems are self balancing entities: There are reactions upon reactions as in a pendulum.

At first women were discriminated, later feminism swingned the arrow towards emasculation, and so the reaction is what you see.

Also spirial dynamics alone tells you that 70% of the population is blue, so what do you expect? Don't judge the whole by the majority. Many red pillers I've read are stage yellow sages that practice pure self actualization. You see what you wanna see.

To learn more watch "The red pill" movie, a documentary by a feminist which is trying to explain this situation.

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Anton Rogachevski

[Shadowraix]

From what I see is these groups take legitimate issues and it ends up radicalized twisted and corrupted because they identify and obsess with it so anything in disagreement makes you a personal enemy and attacker of their 'good cause' Then you can't even have a discussion about those legit issues because the anti sides of those groups assume you are talking about the radicalized form of it. 

Take the Gillette ad. Toxic masculinity I acknowledge as a thing but radical feminist groups has spun it off to be all of masculinity so people assume Gillette is appealing to this version of it and hate it. I treated it as a shoe fits thing. It's really a huge game of labels and wording. Today we use the same words to point to very nuanced things and I the communication failing more and more. 

Or we can't have a female in anything without an assumption it's sjw appealing. And a lot of times it's nothing but a cosmetic change. 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Shadowraix

[Hansu]

34 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

radical feminist groups has spun it off to be all of masculinity

Also, not all toxic masculinity is bad in every situation. Some of the claims are actually blatant lies. We NEED those traits to survive in some situations. There are reasons why we have them.

Like:

-interactions between men and women always has to be competitive and not cooperative.
This is social construct, not a trait

-men can never truly understand women and that men and women can never just be friends.
This is ignorance, not a trait

-That REAL men need to be strong and that showing emotion is a sign of weakness... unless it’s anger, that is considered okay.
If you show weakness from get-go, then you are seen as weak person and have to do tremendous corrective work if you want to be accepted as a leader. This is not a trait of masculinity but humane short-sightedness and assumptions
 

-Indepencende
This is pretty swell when you have to survive in a forest

-The idea that any interest in a range of things that are strictly considered feminine would be an emasculation of a guy.
This was true 10 years ago

 

Best one though:

-The idea that REAL men always want sex and are ready for it at any time.
Lol

[Leo Gura]

Ignorant, dogmatic, and virulent subcultures have existed from the dawn of humanity and will continue to exist for centuries to come.

Devils can't help but build congregations of devils. The devil likes company

[wavydude]

I think it has alot of to do with sexual promiscuity in the west and the way people live in general. People get into alot of relationships starting at young age without building lasting connection and are ending up emotionally damaged and unsensitive. Then you get women who are aging past 30 and starting to realize that "focusing on your career" might not have been the best option so make up something to blame for their unhapiness like "toxic masculinity". 

[CreamCat]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Ignorant, dogmatic, and virulent subcultures have existed from the dawn of humanity and will continue to exist for centuries to come.

Devils can't help but build congregations of devils. The devil likes company

This. I wanted to say this. This is why you should ignore toxic subcultures and focus on self-actualization and life purpose unless they directly get in your way. Toxic subcultures come and go.

Don't worry about the details too much. Details will have been taken care of through necessary adjustments in the next few decades.

Edited January 22, 2019 by CreamCat

[Tal]

People love sharing what they think because the evolution taught us to share knowledge for survival(like sharing a Food source). 

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, CreamCat said:

Everything that's happening happens because they are already allowed by nature. Environmental destruction of earth is allowed by nature, too.

Well, on that level, everything is nature... including human technology and including destruction by humanity as well. It's important to realize that there is nothing in existence that is not natural.

But what I mean by "in harmony with nature" is that it doesn't create harm and destruction to our planet and the things that naturally live upon it without human beings directly making them or influencing them. 

8 hours ago, CreamCat said:

I don't know what will be clear. Whatever happens, stick to your life purpose.

Why bring up life purpose in this instance? We're talking about why certain social patterns are happening. Saying to stick to my life purpose through all this is the same as saying, "Make sure you're eating food in all this too." And I'm like, "Okay. Duh. But that's a random thing to bring up in this conversation." It just feels like a distraction and an attempt to sweep these patterns under the rug as though they're no big deal when they're having an effect on literally everyone. 

Avoiding the shadow (collective or personal) only makes it have a greater effect upon you. Only shining a light on it and focusing in it allows us to integrate and lessens the possessing effect of it. I understand it's uncomfortable, but it's those who close their eyes the most that become the most possessed by it.

Don't sweep anything under the rug, and you will see the issue clearly.

And if you do sweep it under the rug, you will become part of the problem, and you won't even realize it.

[CreamCat]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

Why bring up life purpose in this instance? We're talking about why certain social patterns are happening.

Sticking to one's life purpose regardless of what's happening around oneself is what I've been preaching for a while. Don't mind too much if you don't like it. You're free to do whatever you want to do. I'm going to do what I want to do, which is my life purpose.

I'm leaning toward becoming agnostic of toxic subcultures that come and go.

Edited January 22, 2019 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

14 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

Sticking to one's life purpose regardless of what's happening around oneself is what I've been preaching for a while. Don't mind too much if you don't like it. You're free to do whatever you want to do. I'm going to do what I want to do, which is my life purpose.

I'm leaning toward becoming agnostic of toxic subcultures that come and go.

It's not about me not liking it, it's about ignoring things that are right in your face simply not being a wise decision. And this is because it is precisely unconsciousness and lack of reflection that causes these issues in the first place. So, if someone just decides to focus elsewhere and abide in ignorance, then it basically allows the shadow to overtake them without their knowledge. They will be taken in by the hidden monsters of the status quo and will be completely blindsided by them.

This juncture in history is a ripe time for self-reflection, and there is so much personal and collective turmoil playing out within our societies today that we can just look at what's going on and see the issues we're dealing with inside ourselves. 

So, you can choose to ignore these things, but that won't actually be productive or wise. And ironically, the less you focus on the issue and try to ignore it, the more suffering it will cause you and that you will cause others. 

That's not to say you shouldn't focus on your life purpose. I'm focused on my life's purpose daily, and I'm actively building it day by day. I've already made it my day job. So, you can both notice these things and build your life's purpose. They are not in opposition to one another.

So, it feels like, within the context of this post, alluding to your life purpose is just a way to justify sticking your fingers in your ears and sayng "La La La La". 

Now, you can do choose to avoid this topic. But just be honest and say that you're going to choose to stick your fingers in your ears because you're uncomfortable and think yourself wiser to ignore what's going on.

 

[CreamCat]

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's not about me not liking it, it's about ignoring things that are right in your face simply not being a wise decision. And this is because it is precisely unconsciousness and lack of reflection that causes these issues in the first place. So, if someone just decides to focus elsewhere and abide in ignorance, then it basically allows the shadow to overtake them without their knowledge. They will be taken in by the hidden monsters of the status quo and will be completely blindsided by them.

You don't trust Spiral Dynamics? Humanity raised itself from Red to Orange/Green and toward Yellow without me or you. Trust in the universal process.

I work on my shadows. I worked on my spitefulness, and it was good. I try not to fiddle with others because arguing with others only strengthens their ego backlash. Good luck with trying to talk incels and MGTOW out of their comfort zone.

But, I can inspire others with my life if I live my life well. Don't convince. Inspire.

Edited January 22, 2019 by CreamCat

[Forestluv]

@CreamCat You seem to be operating from an Orange perspective. Nothing wrong with that. I spent about 15 yrs. centered in Orange. Just keep in mind that Emerald is coming from a Green / Yellow perspective.

Within Orange, personal improvement and striving toward personal goals has a lot of value. From a Green perspective, human connection and being a member within communities is highly valued.

[CreamCat]

@Serotoninluv In restrospect, I think Emerald is trying to convince incel and MGTOW out of their comfort zone. By comfort zone, I mean their echo chambers. Convincing people doesn't work because arguments only strengthen one's own position. But, you can inspire them out of their comfort zone. I also think she's not doing a good job of inspiring me into her position by telling me my head is stuck in sand, which doesn't seem to come from a position of compassion.

Inspire them with your own life. Incels might be inspired by self-help techniques. Since incels think they are unfuckable and blame their unfuckability on women, they might be inspired by physical training and positive mindset and responsibility.

For example, if a muscular man becomes a friend with an incel and inspires him to become muscular too, then that incel might become another alpha male who feels confident.

Also, I know I'm not in a good position to inspire others. So, I just work on myself and recommend that people watch self-help videos. I should utilize division of labor and let self-help gurus take care of self-help and raising consciousness.

Lastly, I trust Spiral Dynamics to do its work. I just need to focus on myself and give people quick tips here and there.

Edited January 23, 2019 by CreamCat

[RichardY]

@Wyze Because society is regressing. The birth and death rates are insufficient to cull the weak.