Do not try to kill the mind...

[cetus]

12 minutes ago, isabel said:

can't wait to know this more deeply, thank you

@isabel One appearance thanking another appearance. My pleasure!

[isabel]

@cetus56 lol!

[DrewNows]

@isabelyou can ask yourself what makes a thing “not me” 

Explore how the mind could manipulate your reality. 

If someone tells you, “hey all is one, you are simply awareness”

and you think hmm okay makes sense I’ll give it a try, And you start focusing as “being awareness” 

this as Jack River explains is still another mind-made movement 

 

[Jkris]

Mind referred in scriptures is i or the me feeling or sense of seperation or identity. 

But if one think mind to be thoughts  and intend to achieve a thought free life or living completely in absence of thoughts is impossible. 

 

[phoenix666]

the mind is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master

-Sharma

[isabel]

@DrewNows yes, that's another question that I've been having: what does "beyond the mind" mean? or how do you transcend the mind, and know that whatever it is isn't just another movement of the mind...? 

[SoonHei]

@isabel what does "beyond the mind" mean? or how do you transcend the mind, and know that whatever it is isn't just another movement of the mind...? 

 

 

perfect metaphor i can use to illustrate this (keep in mind, it still isn't the full picture) 

 

Take any movie as an example

Let's use a horror movie to better illustrate

 

When the character you see on the screen reacts to and is afraid or screams in terror upon seeing the ghost/demon whatever.

It is the character who is afraid (in line with the plot / happening of the movie) but the actor playing that character, is he afraid? Not one bit. He knows he is playing a character, the characters mind...

He is both the character's mind and the KNOWING which transcends that character's mind.

 

That's pretty much how the mind is transended. You still remain intimately one with the body+mind but have a DEEP EXPERIENTIAL knowing that YOU are not the one who is suffering. (similar to the actor and character example) 

Note that this follows that you literally are not identified with what you currently know to be yourself as the body and mind with your life story uptill now. 

Just as an actor knows his/her character which they are portraying on screen.

[SoonHei]

This life is called the mortal dream. You have to catch yourself when you take life too serious, and compare it with a dream. When you take your dream serious, and you become violently upset over something, and I try to explain to you, you're dreaming, you will never believe me, because the dream world is very powerful at that time. The doctor has diagnosed cancer, you've got two months to live. But I tell you, "You're dreaming." Do not put your energy on that. Rather turn within. See your reality. Understand that this is a dream. Well you chase me away. You do not want to accept that, because no one else believes it. Yet you wake up in the morning, and it was just a dream. Think about the problems, the wonderful experiences, everything you've been through since you were born. It appears so real, doesn't it? And even now you are a product of all your samskaras, all of your preconceived ideas, your concepts, and how you were brought up and trained. This is your life. You do not know any other life but this. Yet every person seems to come from a different upbringing. Every person has their own beliefs, their own ideas, what's right, what's wrong, what is good, what is bad.

That's how wars start. That's how man's inhumanity to man begins. When you believe I'm right and you're wrong. When you begin to see things that are not right and you want to correct them. No one has ever told us, instead of doing that, dive within yourself and see perfection. See the atman. See unlimited bliss. Begin to dwell on the reality, and soon your world will become reality. When you go to a movie, there's a beginning, a middle, and an end. What is left? The screen. The movie was shown on the screen and all sorts of things transpired in the movie. People were killed, people got married, people had children, the world was bombed, yet the screen never changes. The screen remains the same. There's a story on the screen about a person who was born, he's sexually abused by his parents, he goes through all kinds of horrifying experiences, he becomes a man, becomes a serial killer. All this is going on, on the screen. Then again you see a prince. A baby is born a prince. He grows up into beautiful circumstances, has everything in life, doesn't seem to have a problem. This is too going on, on the screen. But there's an end, and all the images are gone. The screen remains, untarnished, unblemished, the same as it was yesterday, and the week before, and the year before.

My friends, your true nature is like the screen. You are not the image that appears to go through different trials and tribulations, or appears to be enjoying life to the utmost. They're both impostors. You are like the screen. There never really was an image. The image appeared for a time. It appeared. It appeared due to the fact that if you try to grab the image on the screen, what would you grab? The screen. That's why it is an appearance. It is hard to believe that your life, what appears right now, is unreal, simply because you have identified with it strongly. This is what is called maya, the grand illusion. You have strongly identified with your appearance of life, and you are reacting accordingly. Every time you react you are accruing karma. Accruing karma simply means the image is continuing again and again, the ego becoming stronger and stronger. And even when you leave this body, it continues into another body. There's no end. You go through many cycles, some good, some bad. You have all kinds of experiences. But until you realize that you are not the experiencer and there's no experience, you will go through the cycles of karma again, again, again, ad infinitum, no end. It is only when you get tired of playing the game called maya, playing a part called leela, that you decide to find the answer to your existence.

You have to go through the game over and over again, and finally begin to search. You become a seeker. You begin to read spiritual philosophy. You may find a teacher and you're on the path. Depending on what you do, this determines where you go from there. When you come to a meeting like this, when you attend a satsang like this, you can rest assured that you have done spiritual work in a previous life. You deserve to be here to understand the reality, to understand how to transcend the mind, the ego, the pesonal self. As you begin to practice self-inquiry, witnessing, the I am meditation, things begin to happen. You're searching for self-realization, whereas all this time, self-realization has been exactly where you are. You have always been that, yet you believe you've got to search, you've got to read books, deep philosophies, when all you had to do was to wake up. All you had to do was awaken, just as when you awaken in the morning from your dream, you awaken. It's the same thing now. You simply have to awaken. Yet what is keeping you from awakening? Your attitudes. You are attached to your emotions and you are seeing things in your life that either appear wrong or appear either appear right. As long as you have a concept of right or wrong, you can never transcend your body and become free.

Some people ask, "But things are right and wrong in this world. I have to take a stand." My question to those people are always the same. "To whom is there right and wrong? Who feels right and who feels wrong?" Only the ego. In reality there's no right and there's no wrong. There are just experiences of a dream unfolding. Yet the dream doesn't exist. It never did. The world, as it appears right now, does not exist. It never did. The way you believe you are, does not exist. It never did. There is only one and you are that. There never were others. There's only the one. Yet most of you cannot feel this. You're so identified with maya that the world of appearances cause you to feel emotional. You therefore have to work on yourself. You have to do something to yourself, to help you become free. If you leave yourself alone, and you do nothing, you'll go through life, after life, after life, on various planets. You'll have various bodies, female, male, maybe other bodies. It will never end for you. Therefore you begin to question your existence. That is the first step. You question your existence. You question your existence by inquiring, "Who am I? Where did I come from? What is my real nature?"

You start this early in the morning, as soon as you open your eyes. Instead of being cognizant of the world, you leave the world alone for a few minutes. You question yourself, you ask yourself, "Who is awake?" and the answer comes, "I am. I am awake." Then you realize, "I also slept, I slept well, I had a good dream," and you start to wonder about this. This same I that is now awake, is the same I that had a good dream, and the same I that slept well. "Who is this I? What is it's source?" There is a spiritual center on the right side of your chest. You may call this the God center or consciousness. It is on the right side of your chest. You begin to trace the I-thought back to that center from whence it came. Once the I goes back into the center, you become liberated. Therefore the whole idea of spiritual practice, in Advaita Vedanta, is to follow the I-thought back to the source and become free. When the I appears to leave the spiritual center it goes into the brain, and you become cognizant of I am, I am the body, I think. Then you create a world and a universe out of your mind, and the world appears to you as reality. This all happens in a split second. That's why you're not aware of it.

In other words, while you were sleeping the I rested in the spiritual center. As soon as you awaken, in a split second, the I goes into the brain, you become cognizant of a body, and then a world, and then a universe, and the mortal dream begins. So, you have to vehemently make up your mind that you really want to awaken. That's the first prerequisite. How do you know if you really want to awaken? You are sick and tired of the world. You're a person who is no longer trying to change bad for good, for you realize they're both impostors. You understand that the good lasts for so long, then there is bad. The bad lasts for so long, then there is good. You get old, you leave your body, and the game continues. You have to be disgusted with this first, I kid you not. As long as you believe you're enjoying the world and enjoying your life as a human being, you cannot awaken. It's like being in a dream and you're having a wonderful dream. You just don't want to wake up. But all things in the dream must come to an end and change. If you realize that the only thing permanent in life is change, then you will treat the good things in your life the same way as the bad things in your life. You will not become emotional over them, and you will not be attached to them. That's the only time you can go further.

As long as you still want to play the game of maya, and act out your part, there's no sense in practicing self-inquiry, for your attachment will keep you back from reality. But for the person who has gone through many lives and is ready to give it all up, that person can practice self-inquiry. A question arises. "When I become self-realized, do I have to go live in a cave, or in the forest, or become a hermit?" On the contrary, there are Jnanis in every field of endeavor. Yet who asked that question? The ajnani. This is one of the things you should not concern yourself over. Everything will always work itself out. Many of you call me on the telephone and tell me you're afraid of awakening. You think you'll be different, your family will leave you or you'll leave your family, you'll lose your job. This is all ignorance. None of that will happen. The only thing that will happen is you'll be awake, and you'll see the world as a superimposition on the Self. That's all. You will have exceedingly happy moments in your life when you're in delusion, but the happy moments go. When you're awake, you stay in unlimited bliss. You become unlimited bliss. There are no longer any mood swings. You're always the same. Joy, bliss, happiness, they're all rolled into one, and they are you.

So the sincere student does not worry about the results, or what might happen. They're ready to go for it. When something in their heart opens and they're ready to go for it 100%, they are led to the right teacher, who can show them the way, and they follow the instructions of the teacher. That comes first in their life. Those are the beings who awaken into bliss […] Your real nature is like a universal screen. On that universal screen planets are being born, universes come and go. The earth is only a small dot on the screen. You are that screen. You are nothing else. You are Parabrahman, all-pervading. You are self-contained consciousness, absolute reality, emptiness, nirvana, sat-chit-ananda, I am that I am. That is your real nature. Therefore make up your mind. Whom shall I follow? Shall I follow my ego, my emotions and what appears to be real, or shall I begin to ignore those things and dive into my Self, becoming free? The choice is yours.

-- Robert Adams, T93: Silence, The Spiritual Center

[Shin]

1 hour ago, isabel said:

@DrewNows yes, that's another question that I've been having: what does "beyond the mind" mean? or how do you transcend the mind, and know that whatever it is isn't just another movement of the mind...? 

Yes that's something I pondered for quite some time too.

What if the «watcher» is still the mind, just a really subtle and more peaceful part of it watching everything else.

I don't think we can answer this question before an awakening, imo it's just arrogance to say otherwise.

[DrewNows]

3 hours ago, isabel said:

@DrewNows yes, that's another question that I've been having: what does "beyond the mind" mean? or how do you transcend the mind, and know that whatever it is isn't just another movement of the mind...? 

This is actually a good question to sit with, but not a very good question to receive an answer for.

What does it really mean to go "beyond one's mind"? Is it even possible to transcend the mind? To find out what this entails you will need to know exactly what it means to be "you" and when there is an awareness of this "you"can it create freedom to be without any of the mental boundaries distorting your reality

2 hours ago, SoonHei said:

Take any movie as an example

Let's use a horror movie to better illustrate

 

When the character you see on the screen reacts to and is afraid or screams in terror upon seeing the ghost/demon whatever.

It is the character who is afraid (in line with the plot / happening of the movie) but the actor playing that character, is he afraid? Not one bit. He knows he is playing a character, the characters mind...

He is both the character's mind and the KNOWING which transcends that character's mind.

Take this movie metaphor to a more personal level: We are actually watching this horror movie, during the movie we become engrossed in the contents of this movie right? Psychologically. We can actually feel everything the characters in the movie are experiencing other than actual physical pain (however sometimes even this seems real), at least how our minds interpret it. When we get distracted or look away for a second, maybe we are reminded, oh yeah "it's only a movie", something some of us keep in the back of our head while watching. This "knowing" (it's only a movie) in the back of our heads is what will begin to be show up as "insights" when we observe all the subtleties in the story of our life. How we create the very confusion, fear, limitations, and suffering we psychologically desire to avoid

Isn't it amazing the power of our minds? It gets to the point where we just don't understand what problems it has created for us, because we become conditioned to keep returning to it in search for a way to escape

[Jack River]

43 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Isn't it amazing the power of our minds? It gets to the point where we just don't understand what problems it has created for us, because we become conditioned to keep returning to it in search for a way to escape

Mind is conditioned to problems. Can’t live with them, can’t live without them. 

[Joseph Maynor]

The mind is the the guy who’s in the crow’s nest in the ship of Ego.  The mind ultimately serves your Ego by bringing all possibilities and potential problems into Awareness that might conflict with the interests of your Ego.  The mind is a tool of the Ego.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[DrewNows]

@Joseph Maynorinteresting interpretation / perspective ?  

[SoonHei]

 

A book, a novel, what is it really? When stripped to the core, it’s just a bunch of squiggles written across otherwise empty pages. Those squiggles are interpreted by the reader to represent things, and in his mind he creates the appropriate image or idea. That is the power of the word, to conjure up unseen things upon a whim, as if by magic. As long as the words are understood, the images can be created.

All sorts of things can be created in imagination by use of words. Characters are developed, each with their unique appearance and personality. They have relationships, joys and sorrows, adventures and conquests. But in a book, when a character speaks, is it they who are really speaking? Did they have an option in the matter to speak or not? Or a choice in what they would say or how they would react? Is there even a person there?

Even though you might get lost in the book, and envisioning yourself as the main character, what happens when the book is put down? Do you fear putting it down out of fear you’ll disappear? Of course not, though the character and his world will vanish because they were only imagined. But who is reading the book and imagining all of this in the first place?

Words in thought are no different than these squiggles on a blank page. Within thought, these sounds are given meaning and all sorts of unique characters and worlds are developed, including the main character named ‘I’. But it’s all just a story that’s being read. There is no character there speaking, just as there is no character actually speaking his dialogue within a book. Who or what is reading the words of thought, interpreting them and giving them reality? Without such a story, what would be?

 

[Anton Rogachevski]

To try and kill the mind, is like a cucumber that wants to kill the garden. Except without a garden there wouldn't be a cucumber.

[Joseph Maynor]

4 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

To try and kill the mind, is like a cucumber that wants to kill the garden. Except without a garden there wouldn't be a cucumber.

The mind is an agent of your Ego.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Anton Rogachevski]

32 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

The mind is an agent of your Ego.

I'm sorry dear fellow, I've lost you there. What is mind and ego in direct experience? 

[DrewNows]

@Anton Rogachevskithe ego being that which you identify as who you are...and mind creates its agenda. Actually mind looks out for the agenda of ego @Joseph Maynoris this about right?

Edited 

Edited January 24, 2019 by DrewNows

[Anton Rogachevski]

23 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@Anton Rogachevskithe ego being that which you identify as who you are...and mind creates its agenda. @Joseph Maynoris this about right? 

@Joseph Maynor

In the intellectual sense, it does seem right, except I guess my query was a trick question, because in direct experience there is no mind, nor ego. So how can one idea be an agent of another?

The way I see it, the ego is an attachment (along with a nice little back story) of the mind to a body. Its an action and not a concrete thing, and so saying it has agents is as ridiculous as saying it exists.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Anton Rogachevski

[Joseph Maynor]

16 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@Anton Rogachevskithe ego being that which you identify as who you are...and mind creates its agenda. Actually mind looks out for the agenda of ego @Joseph Maynoris this about right?

It’s intersting.  These models all have their limitations and pros and cons in different contexts.  That said — I like to think of the mind as the best friend of the Ego — the guy who’s looking out for the Ego.  Ego is the you that has preferences of reality.  The mind is the warner, foreseer, and planner for the Ego.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Joseph Maynor