The dark side of meditation (having a proper theoretical foundation)

[Matt23]

Attached is a video from Willoughby Britton who runs a place for people who have had, I think, more severe disturbances to do with meditation (though I don't know how they know if something's coming from meditation or not).

The place is called Cheetah House.

In it she discusses the research she's been doing on adverse affects of meditation.  She also had the opportunity to show her findings to the Dalai Lama.  According to her, the Dalai Lama said that "issues will arise if people don't have an adequate theoretical foundation."  

She goes on to tell a story about how the Dalai Lama went to India to bless a temple.  When he got there he asked "Where is the library?".  He found out they didn't have a library and wouldn't bless the temple.

This seems to be similar to something I've heard echoed in Ken Wilber's work.  He once talked about how the cognitive line is like a catcher's mitt for mystical experiences.  

I can't remember if Leo touched on this subject in his "Dark side of meditation" video.  

If anyone has any personal experiences or knows of other teachers or books that touch on this subject I'd love to hear about them.

Have you noticed your spiritual practice get better as you learn more theory?

have you seen other people going through difficulties, then see them get better as they learn more theory?

 

[Matt23]

Here's the meeting between her and the Dalai Lama.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

I have said exactly the same thing in my Becoming A Zen Devil video and The 10 Ox Herding Pictures video.

Most people half-ass spirituality due to piss-poor theoretical foundation. This is common with shallow Neo-Advaita style teachings.

When it comes to theory, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. But I would rather have too much than too little.

Technically, a Zen Devil is one who practices Zen with no theory.

[tedens]

So.. meditation is for everyone but not at any time.  

[now is forever]

being wholly means you can’t separate the egg white from the yolk entirely - wholistically speaking you even need the  shell for transportation. ? ? 

Edited January 20, 2019 by now is forever

[ivory]

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/5-dissolution-entrance-to-the-dark-night/

[Matt23]

It seems like going through lots of theory can also have a humbling effect on someone and make them see the limits of knowledge.  Hopefully leading to more openness to not-knowing.  

The more I learn and hear others' perspectives, the more I find that silence is the truer response.

@Leo Gura  Regarding teaching spirituality and various techniques.  After doing your life purpose course, I came up with lots of values and themes relating to spirituality and enlightenment work.  Teaching about it and creating places (potentially monasteries or centers) for people to work towards enlightenment is something that I feel a certain call to do.  Though I'm not 100%, it seems like a good general direction to head for now.  One thing I'm struggling with is my lack of experience and age.  I'm 26 and I haven't had any enlightenment experiences yet.  I've been meditating for about 4 years now, but still struggle with it.  I've held a few teachings for people in my community giving them a general introduction to this stuff. 

I'm wondering what advice you'd give to someone who wants to use spirituality (teaching it and creating communities and centers) as their life purpose, even if they're really young with a spiral dynamics center of gravity probably hovering around stage red?

I still don't really know what my zone of genius is exactly, and am uncertain as to all the practical skills I should be developing as.

 

Thanks for any tips.

[Leo Gura]

@Matt23 Well, you might also want to work on developing some practical skills like public speaking, coaching, teachings, mentoring, etc.

Think about what kind of practical skills would enable your LP. You could train to become a therapist for example, etc.

There are many such opportunities.

Since you live in the real world you're gonna have to build a set of stepping stones which move you up to your ultimate vision. Try to find a way to make a living that aligns with your LP at least somewhat. For example, becoming a therapist might be a great way to learn about helping people with their spiritual problems while also earning good money. Then you could transcend traditional therapy and do more spiritual type of retreats or workshops or coaching.

Actualizing a big LP usually requires several such practical career moves. You can't just become exactly what you want in one step in most cases.

Although if you were really serious, you could beocme a full-time monk and become enlightened within a few years.

[Tal]

Being a monk could help you because it will get you enlightened but there are other aspects of life which you will need to develope. Ken wilber outlines such lines of development as waking up (enlightment), growing up (developing in the way of thinking and interacting with the world. Spiral dynamics can help in this line), cleaning up (includes shadow work), and showing up. 

You can choose some point and go that direction and then change it. For example you can choose you want to be a monk and maybe a few years later you have other ideas of going and learning to be a public speaker or coach etc. Over time you will become closer to actualizing you LP. 

[Gabriel Antonio]

@Matt23 Have you ever done a Vipassana retreat?

 

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, you might also want to work on developing some practical skills like public speaking, coaching, teachings, mentoring, etc.

Think about what kind of practical skills would enable your LP. You could train to become a therapist for example, etc.

There are many such opportunities.

Since you live in the real world you're gonna have to build a set of stepping stones which move you up to your ultimate vision. Try to find a way to make a living that aligns with your LP at least somewhat. For example, becoming a therapist might be a great way to learn about helping people with their spiritual problems while also earning good money. Then you could transcend traditional therapy and do more spiritual type of retreats or workshops or coaching.

Actualizing a big LP usually requires several such practical career moves. You can't just become exactly what you want in one step in most cases.

 

?

[Matt23]

@Leo Gura  Yeah, I figured it'd be something like that.  I've definitely considered doing the monk thing for a few years.  But I also see the value, freedom, and fulfillment in getting some skills and credentials and producing my own work in the world.  Either way, I figure anything that gets me into the "vortex" of psychology and spirituality will be a good start.  Being a monk is definitely something I want to do in my life at some point though.

Thanks for your insights.  They closely match my own feelings about it and that helps me feel reassured.

@Tal  Thanks.  Yeah, I think I'm beginning to see more and more that this process isn't about a "1-2-Got it!" process, but rather more like jumping into a giant whirlpool (field of study/work) and then over time getting closer and closer to the center of my life purpose.  

Also, I'm familiar with the Waking up, Growing up, and Cleaning up.  Do you know what the Showing up aspect is about?

@Gabriel Antonio  No.  But I've always wanted to.  I did a solo camping trip last winter.  It went OK.  I definitely couldn't meditate for 10 hours a day.  I found simply laying down and doing nothing helped a lot.  I also did another 10'ish day solo at my Dad's house this winter which was definitely full of distractions.  It was really helpful though.  It definitely made me realize how difficult yet productive those retreats can be for healing and purification/growing.  I'm at being able to do like 4 hours max of meditation on a good day.  Laying on the couch not doing anything is my current level.  Even that is hard for me sometimes..... the boredom!    the cravings!

Are any of you guys currently working towards or working in a related filed (psychology, spirituality, etc.)?  

Thanks all.

[Gabriel Antonio]

38 minutes ago, Matt23 said:

No.  But I've always wanted to.  I did a solo camping trip last winter.  It went OK.  I definitely couldn't meditate for 10 hours a day.  I found simply laying down and doing nothing helped a lot.  I also did another 10'ish day solo at my Dad's house this winter which was definitely full of distractions.  It was really helpful though.  It definitely made me realize how difficult yet productive those retreats can be for healing and purification/growing.  I'm at being able to do like 4 hours max of meditation on a good day.  Laying on the couch not doing anything is my current level.  Even that is hard for me sometimes..... the boredom!    the cravings!

I think you should give it a try. Doing solo retreats are extremely challenging. And if you do Vipassana, the collective energy will help you. For example, just by observing more experienced meditators, you might gain insights on how to practice meditation properly. 

[Jack River]

For me, when I saw the falsity of hope, I was actually able to inquire into what breeds this wishful striving for security, which manifests as this phenomenon that we term as hope. 

I noticed that until there was freedom unburdened by hope/desire/resistance to what-is, I wasn’t actually able to step out of the field of what should be, and stay with the fact of what was actually the case. 

Then I could freely, and without distortion/illusion, explore into the phenomenon of fear/anger/anxiety/depression-thought in general. 

Freedom to explore the above without the illusion of psychological becoming as falsity, set the foundation to learn about myself in daily life(relationship-subject/object manifestations) and with other personas. 

When this foundation was laid(self-knowledge), then there was a freedom without the authority of the past (experience/experiences and accumulated bais/prejudices-self centered motivation/effort).

The beginning of this self-knowledge Was the beginning of what allows for meditation, which is an unpremeditated art. 

Because to meditate demands no effort/volition.

Self-knowledge to the level of holistic insight, is the ending of effort. 

Then there is meditation. 

 

As far as theory, that qualifies as what should be. Unless its a pointing-mirroring that of the apparent subject/object divison(experience or what-is) ofcourse. That is useful. To point at & explore duality. 

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Jack River

[Matt23]

@Gabriel Antonio Yeah, I agree.  I'd like to have a consistent and advanced teacher to get pointers from.  I'm beginning to see how I could be really susceptible to delusion and doing things improperly or not as effectively as I could without a teacher or others pointing things out for me.  Even if it's not the best advice or perspective, I still think it's helpful to see things a different way.

Thanks for the support.