My disagreement with Leo Gura on the direction of self-actualization

[undeather]

5 minutes ago, OrpheusNovum said:

THANK YOU for this. I'm open to the possibility of everyone experiencing their own reality. I mean, for fuck's sake, look how cool quantum gravity theory is! Ultimately, I think E8 and emergence theory will pan out over string theory, given that it requires 26 dimensions and starts being unstable by 13. Also, if you look at 8-dimensional spheres, they look a lot like ancient models of reality, all stacked onto each other. I'm also open to the possibility that there's DIFFERENT KINDS of enlightenment. Wouldn't that be cool?

I'm grateful that Leo is open minded enough to have an open forum for discussion. But as an actor, you MUST understand I'm hungry to hear people's various experiences! I really hope Leo reconsiders. I may have come out of the gate strong, but part of my concern is that this sort of enlightenment strips away art. And there's nothing I won't do to defend art.

Yeah, at the end, the one thing to be sure of, is that reality is unbelievably weird. The more I learn about different stuff (i.e  psychodelics, quantum mechanics, enlightenment, siddhis... and of course science) the more I realize that I dont know shit about anything. I try to become more an more open minded while still remaining a skeptic in some way. I think you are quite similar to that. 

I am a MD, so I know what you are talking about the concern that "enlightenment" strips away certain aspects of life or science. I had the same concerns for my field of expertise but that fear is baseless. 

[Sempiternity]

1 minute ago, OrpheusNovum said:

I'm here because there's a plague of addiction in my family, my dad's an alcoholic, my mom died 7 years ago from drinking, my siblings are heavy drinkers and my uncle overeats out of shame. I wan nothing more than to be enlightened and self-actualized so that I can take away their pain. That's whg I'm here. And if you're going to do something worthwhile, you start with WHY.

If this is actually true to you, then stop talking, listen to the teachings and dedicate yourself fully to the work. Fastest path. Fighting it will only postpone what you want longer. 

[OrpheusNovum]

I haven't been fighting it until recently. I watch at least 3-5 videos a week. I get excited by ideas. I love the process of epistemology, it's like a chthonic excursion into the Greek Underworld. It's poetic fuel. Even the pain becomes worth it, when it transmutes itself into beauty and irony.

@Shiva If I was trying to confirm my beliefs, I wouldn't have publicized my disagreement. Science is a simple process. The best ideas win because they're true.

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[OrpheusNovum]

I don't understand how "you don't exist" doesn't pan out to gaslighting. 

[Odysseus]

There are existential questions that cannot be tackled with the mind. I'm interest in answering them. I'm not interest in concepts, truth claims or debate. It's okay if you want to defend your concepts. But you'll see that you're only muddying the waters. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Odysseus

[DnoReally]

@OrpheusNovum Are you a greek-mythology based Jordan Peterson?

[OrpheusNovum]

No, just someone lost and looking for answers. That's generally how my spiritual experiences come. When it boils down to it, I think I reacted to an ego backlash. The gods feel real to me. More real than the reality I know. I tell myself I'm stupid and delusional, or that I've been playing too many video games or watching too much tv. It's hard sometimes watching Leo's videos because they deconstruct things in such a way that contradicts a lot of deeply held beliefs. For example, my family has had me believing that I need to suffer and play the object game in life. I'm depressed. I spent half of last week without food, and I live in the middle of nowhere in Minnesota with no friends nearby, and only my abusive father a few miles away. 

I'm mostly only angry and hateful towards myself. My mom told me when I was young that if I wasn't a good child, she would die from stress. Today I coped with that pain, had a major backlash and went after Leo because I couldn't manage my own pain. I'm terrified because I'm about to put my dog in a shelter because I can't afford to keep her, and I don't know any reason why I should care enough about life to go on living if I can't have my best friend. I hate sob stories, but I'm just feeling eviscerated right now. I'm sorry I couldn't see it. I still believe all the science stuff, though. I'll do better, Leo.

[OrpheusNovum]

Pain isn't even the beginning. I've been through some awful shit, and I feel completely overwhelmed. 

[Arhattobe]

Beliefs, and ideologies including non duality can serve as an escape. To run away from our hurt. True growth comes from learning from pain though. Not ignoring it.

[OrpheusNovum]

2 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

Beliefs, and ideologies including non duality can serve as an escape. To run away from our hurt. True growth comes from learning from pain though. Not ignoring it.

I learn a lot from pain and not enough from love.

[Arhattobe]

@OrpheusNovum Love deepens if we  learn from pain, when we see the same hurt in others. 

[OrpheusNovum]

3 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

@OrpheusNovum Love deepens if we  learn from pain, when we see the same hurt in others.

Yeah, but I thought that was codependency. I'm scared shitless of narcissism. Doesn't help that I sometimes get hypervigilant. 

[Arhattobe]

@OrpheusNovum seeing hurt in others leads to empathy. Codependency is an unhealthy coping mechanism.

the entire world is in pain. When we put out pain, our coping mechanism, our belief system, our experiences above theirs. Consciously or otherwise. We move away from empathy, love, understanding. Seeing the equality in all.

strive no to do that. 

[MisterMan]

4 hours ago, Shiva said:

You don't want answers. You want debate and win debates to get a sense of confirmation for the beliefs that you already hold. 

The ego, of course, will tell you that what I say is wrong and that it's all for truth and to learn. Well, that's the ego's game.

It takes a lot of self-awareness to see that, which this community is here for to develop. 

So, I think there's a lot to be learned for you here. But if this content or community doesn't resonate with you, you may be better off finding one that does. Just don't fall into the trap of joining one that just confirms your beliefs.

Man, deconstruction is a trip.

Edited January 20, 2019 by MisterMan

[Moreira]

I think you are lost in your mental masturbation, STOP the mind.

[TheAvatarState]

6 hours ago, OrpheusNovum said:

Science is a simple process. The best ideas win because they're true.

This is a self-deception and an ideology, based on a simplistic, darwinian understanding of systems and evolution. Ideas don't "win." Science is not a simple process, and it's highly biased without knowing it's biased. 

 Science isn't the best model, nor is it the only model. Only ideas with implied materialist metaphysics will be seriously considered or propagated within science. If you want Truth, if you want answers, then look elsewhere.  

Edited January 20, 2019 by TheAvatarState

[Forestluv]

8 hours ago, OrpheusNovum said:

I want a debate of ideas. I think I'm right. If I'm not, then disprove me. This is how we learn. You can call it ego, but that breaks down to shaming someone for dissenting opinion. Telling me I'm wrong is well and good if you can prove it. 

You are deeply immersed within a story. The ego sets up a defense mechanism to protect the story. 

Developing to the next stage would require sincerity, humility, willingness, openness and surrender. You are not at this point. You think you are right and want someone else to prove you wrong. This is a nasty trap.

The burden of proof is not on the other person, the burden of proof is on you. You must question your own beliefs and through sincere practice humbly ask that the truth be revealed to you. Then surrender and open yourself to what may be revealed.

[OrpheusNovum]

Mental masturbation is exactly what it is. My mind has been running in circles constantly trying to figure out how to keep my dog. I haven't given myself any time to decompress and relax. 

It's honestly not like me to do this - not anymore at least. I guess old habits die hard. I was also told by someone not to listen to Leo because he's "low empathy". Part of this was a histrionic reaction to that. I looked at it from another angle though, and I think they're wrong.

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[RichardY]

10 hours ago, OrpheusNovum said:

I don't understand how "you don't exist" doesn't pan out to gaslighting. 

Yes sounds that way. I think 'no self' makes the most sense to me, not sure whether that is out of vanity/envy. Not a place for disagreement unless 'ye' can mutually call each other friend. Critique would be one better. Although I keep a relative scoreboard.

Self: The unrealised parts of the personality (Jung). His god being Pantheistic; Abraxas.
Ego: Mediating(Freud) and Regulating(Jung). Memory which memes.
I: Relation to God. "The ever present I am".
Soul: That which transcends flesh (maybe.... Buddhism rejects the idea of soul or gods. Jainism and Christianity supports the idea)

Instead of the red and yellow, and pink and green..... I like to weight people relatively.

Genghis Khan: Red, Blue, Orange whatever. Badass +20. Genius I.Q +10. Open to Discussion +5. Honest +10. Born to Kill +10.
The Young Turks(Green): Named after Genocidal Group -20. Popular -5.
OSHO(Turquise): Terrorist Cult Leader -15. Dishonest -15. Very Good Presentation +5.
Sadhguru(Turquoise): Ontological +5. Religion of Balance -5.
Jordan Peterson(Orange/Green): Teleological -5. Dishonest - 15. Good I.Q +5. Different Ideas +5.

 

[OrpheusNovum]

Thanks for the perspective. I think I'd like to let this thread die if I can, no need to embarrass myself further. Keeping a journal starting here: