My disagreement with Leo Gura on the direction of self-actualization

[OrpheusNovum]

First off, let me say that Actualized.org has been phenomenal as a resource on the study of subjective thought. However, subjectivity is only a single state of being, and being nihilistic and solipsistic does not produce result when battling depression. This, seen from my perspective lines up with Nietzsche's criticism of the fall of ancient Greece - culture had become too Apollonian and not enough Dionysian. Too much focus on the mind, not enough on the body.

Objectivity is NECESSARY. Our inner potential to manifest object meaning should suggest that, to some degree, our inner reality ALSO carries objectivity. The objectivity in this sense lies not in an object's palpable existence, but rather in its POTENTIAL to exist. Think of it this way: There are inner and an outer fields of reality. For the sake of illustration, we can call international potential reality "time-space" and external manifest reality "space-time". For an object to exist in space-time, it must FIRST exist in time-space, then PROJECT ITSELF through a being capable of complex cognitive thought to gain its meaning and significance in reality. This was Aristotle's musings on the topic of Teleology. 

Similarly, self may not exist, but if you consider "self" as a four-dimensional time object with POTENTIAL to exist, you can have objectivity. Meaning is inherently projective, but so is the nature of manifest self. Active conscientious projection is the only thing capable of manifesting object-self.

Now how do I know "self" is a four dimensional time object with potential to exist? Because the laws of physics tell us that if a four-dimensional being were to manifest within our 3-dimensional object reality, it would be able to change its age at will. Think about how you act during the day. Is all your information information coming ONLY from what you know in that moment? Of course not. It comes from your knowledge of who you've been across the timeline of your life.

Now obviously, we can't just mindlessly project like a two-year-old who doesn't know how to use his dick spraying pee all over the bathroom floor, but that's where storytelling comes in. Your ego is Pandora's box. A tesseract (4-dimensional hypercube) FILLED with object potential. The first time you open it, all the horrors of the world escape. You project it through art. Then you open it again. And you're met with what you wanted all along.

Love.

Peace.

Light.

Being.

Please rebuttal this if you feel it worthy of criticism, but this is my knowledge from my angle of my process of self-actualization, which I developed through a personalized process of meditative method acting to achieve altered states of being. Thanks for your consideration in reading this.

 

TL;DR: Subjectivity does not work run to extremes because subjectivity still carries a seed of potential for object-meaning to manifest through active projection. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[Leo Gura]

@OrpheusNovum You are REALLY lost in concepts.

Everything you said above is a conceptual fantasy that your mind constructed. Time, space, physics, objectivity, depression, body, mind, inner, outer, other people, nihilism, solipsism, Aristotle, Nietzsche, ancient Greece -- are all mental fabrications.

If you think Actualized.org is "nihilistic" or "solipsistic" you are really not understanding nonduality, spirituality, or consciousness yet.

Neither focusing on the mind or the body is the real solution. What is necessary is to self-reflect and become more conscious. Consciousness is neither inner nor outer, neither mind or body. What you call "the body" is really just another aspect of your mind. And the entire domain of mind is unreal anyways.

More practically-speaking, if you're new to this work (and it's obvious you are given what you wrote), nothing I say is against the body per se. If you are stuck in depression and you want to use a body-based approach for breaking out, like Hatha yoga, gym, cleaning up your diet, going out to nightclubs with your friends, starting a business, going mountain-climbing, etc. -- that can be a useful approach. But in the end it will not be a root solution to depression because depression is deeply rooted in your metaphysical disconnection from consciousness & being. No amount of body work will solve that. No amount of success will solve that. For that, you must deeply investigate the inner workings of your own mind and your entire identity.

The deepest work you can do it is done in solitude sitting on a cushion. But this is advanced work. Most people are not yet ready to do that. They need a lot of external actions first. And that's okay. I have nothing against taking external action. I spent many years taking external actions. But nowadays I'm at the point in my own development where I mostly care about internal actions. Pretty much all of your external actions are driven by ego, and this is the root problem. You are not going to solve that problem through more external action. But this is not to say external actions are somehow bad. In practice most people need to take a lot of external action when getting started with personal development.

Not only is objectivity not necessary, it is impossible! There is no such thing! You made it up.

[OrpheusNovum]

@Leo Gura Thanks for responding, let me process that so I can get to the root of it. I'll post here probably in an hour or so.

[OrpheusNovum]

Alright cupcake, sit down and buckle up, because I'm going to debunk your claim that I don't know what I'm doing or what I'm talking about, and I'm metaphysically disconnected. I know a lot about self-actualization that you probably don't. 

Science isn't just a field of study for me. As a practicing Hellenic, science and storytelling are the core of my faith. My metaphysical connection with Athena, Hermes, Apollo, Zeus and Poseidon is the reason I choose to live every day. I'm still on bad terms with Artemis, but that's because I used to abuse animals growing up, and it kills me to know that I was such an awful person. The gods exist through the nature of manifest meaning. We invoke them every time we use the English language, because the constructions run fucking DEEP. I love them with all of my being, and if I was told tomorrow that I was banned from worshipping, I'd go to the state capital with a sword and demand to be killed on the spot. Gruesome, but I live my life by the Hippocratic Oath. I am not allowed by nature of faith to wield any object with the express purpose of causing harm to another being.

As someone who likely spent a fair portion of his life behind the screen of a computer, you likely, as I have, have noticed the degree to which your mind has understood the computer down to the Lacanian mirroring level of your psychopathology. You have unconsciously internalized the metastructures of a computer, and are learning to use the functions for what's only a little more evolved than "looksmaxxing", turned into the process of "thoughtsmaxxing". However, the difference between you and I is that I'm willing to step back, look at things objectively BECAUSE I HAVE DEVELOPED THIS AS AN ACTOR, and see what's really going on. Your answer is that reality is a loop, nothing exists, science doesn't encapsulate truth. BULLSHIT. This is fallacious logic, and it's ultimately toxic. You're creating an internalized projection of self, and melding it into the reflective tapestry of the universe that casts itself into our unconscious being when we allow our minds to be loose and free.

This process happens because of a Darwinian function of self-defense that ultimately blocks harmful information from coming in and destroying our sense of self, which is necessary for survival. If the ego is relaxed, information passes through freely. The problem here is that you're a smart guy with a weak ego that needs to be strengthened through harder work than you're likely to put in. Research is great, but life is meaningless when spent reading in complete isolation. 

My process through meditative method acting has allowed me to run through deconstructive epistemology across THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, without chemicals that produce altered states of being. 

You have run through the process of deconstructive epistemology on YOURSELF and ONLY yourself, such to the extent that you now believe that you are all that is or ever was. This is a logical fallacy that is tantamount to a dangerous form of reductive pathological narcissism. 

There is not one being. One self. There are many selves cast across the substratum of people. The fact that Aristotelian logic does not meld into the discoveries of western culture is not the result of logic being ultimately fallacious, but rather is a consequence of the fact that at this point in our history there is little no overlap between the linguistic constructions of these cultures, and therefore this knowledge often appears to fall outside the system of logic, because such logic has yet to be applied and integrated into these cultural egos.

Objectivity IS made up, but it's made up of projected meaning, and meaning is the human operative interpretation of the fundamental substructure of reality.

I would recommend looking into emergence theory and E8 as a viable explanation for a theory of quantum gravity.

Furthermore, passivity always begets pathological aggression. The answer is to go for what you want in life, and live by something meaningful. Not sit on a pillow and think about it. Laziness is not laziness, but fear of the consequences of action.

I don't like being defensive. But I also don't like being told I'm stupid.

 

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[Leo Gura]

What is it you want? Are you here to learn or are you here to school me?

It is the mark of a devil to walk into a classroom and proceed to school the teacher.

Drop the ego games.

[iGhost]

52 minutes ago, OrpheusNovum said:

Alright cupcake, sit down and buckle up, because I'm going to debunk your claim that I don't know what I'm doing or what I'm talking about, and I'm metaphysically disconnected. I know a lot about self-actualization that you probably don't. 

Science isn't just a field of study for me. As a practicing Hellenic, science and storytelling are the core of my faith. My metaphysical connection with Athena, Hermes, Apollo, Zeus and Poseidon is the reason I choose to live every day. I'm still on bad terms with Artemis, but that's because I used to abuse animals growing up, and it kills me to know that I was such an awful person. The gods exist through the nature of manifest meaning. We invoke them every time we use the English language, because the constructions run fucking DEEP. I love them with all of my being, and if I was told tomorrow that I was banned from worshipping, I'd go to the state capital with a sword and demand to be killed on the spot. Gruesome, but I live my life by the Hippocratic Oath. I am not allowed by nature of faith to wield any object with the express purpose of causing harm to another being.

As someone who likely spent a fair portion of his life behind the screen of a computer, you likely, as I have, have noticed the degree to which your mind has understood the computer down to the Lacanian mirroring level of your psychopathology. You have unconsciously internalized the metastructures of a computer, and are learning to use the functions for what's only a little more evolved than "looksmaxxing", turned into the process of "thoughtsmaxxing". However, the difference between you and I is that I'm willing to step back, look at things objectively BECAUSE I HAVE DEVELOPED THIS AS AN ACTOR, and see what's really going on. Your answer is that reality is a loop, nothing exists, science doesn't encapsulate truth. BULLSHIT. This is fallacious logic, and it's ultimately toxic. You're creating an internalized projection of self, and melding it into the reflective tapestry of the universe that casts itself into our unconscious being when we allow our minds to be loose and free.

This process happens because of a Darwinian function of self-defense that ultimately blocks harmful information from coming in and destroying our sense of self, which is necessary for survival. If the ego is relaxed, information passes through freely. The problem here is that you're a smart guy with a weak ego that needs to be strengthened through harder work than you're likely to put in. Research is great, but life is meaningless when spent reading in complete isolation. 

My process through meditative method acting has allowed me to run through deconstructive epistemology across THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, without chemicals that produce altered states of being. 

You have run through the process of deconstructive epistemology on YOURSELF and ONLY yourself, such to the extent that you now believe that you are all that is or ever was. This is a logical fallacy that is tantamount to a dangerous form of reductive pathological narcissism. 

There is not one being. One self. There are many selves cast across the substratum of people. The fact that Aristotelian logic does not meld into the discoveries of western culture is not the result of logic being ultimately fallacious, but rather is a consequence of the fact that at this point in our history there is little no overlap between the linguistic constructions of these cultures, and therefore this knowledge often appears to fall outside the system of logic, because such logic has yet to be applied and integrated into these cultural egos.

Objectivity IS made up, but it's made up of projected meaning, and meaning is the human operative interpretation of the fundamental substructure of reality.

I would recommend looking into emergence theory and E8 as a viable explanation for a theory of quantum gravity.

Furthermore, passivity always begets pathological aggression. The answer is to go for what you want in life, and live by something meaningful. Not sit on a pillow and think about it. Laziness is not laziness, but fear of the consequences of action.

I don't like being defensive. But I also don't like being told I'm stupid.

 

You are drowning in beliefs and self-deception. I doubt that you ever had enlightenment experience, I would take psychedelics if I were you to see how deep the rabbit hole goes because you are going in circles, trying to figure stuff out with your limited mind. 

Your ignorance just shows the level of your consciousness and how fucking beautifully designed the ego is and deceives you.

*Levitates back to his cushion and regrets that he even replied. Seeing evil made him the evil, fell into this trap again*

[OrpheusNovum]

I want a debate of ideas. I think I'm right. If I'm not, then disprove me. This is how we learn. You can call it ego, but that breaks down to shaming someone for dissenting opinion. Telling me I'm wrong is well and good if you can prove it. There's a difference between being bold and being egocentric. People don't have ideas, ideas have people. I'll cut the defensive, but I don't like people making presumptions about me, and I'm sure you could say the same. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[OrpheusNovum]

Actualized.org works on the Elon Musk-like philosophy that if your boat is drowning, and you have a great design for a bucket, you should share it. Consider my opinion to be a product test of the bucket. Because actualized.org should be the best bucket it can be. Besides, nobody's infallible. Carbon only becomes diamond under pressure.

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[Leo Gura]

@OrpheusNovum You sir are a devil, and your BS is as transparent as the cloudless sky.

[OrpheusNovum]

Then point it out so I can see it and improve on myself.

[OrpheusNovum]

I'm not a hack, I've been watching your videos for a year and a half. I grew up travelling, visiting Buddhist temples at the age of 6 and learning Chinese Zen and Feng Shui from my mother, who was a genius with a postdoctoral master's in oral and maxillofacial surgery. I respect what you're doing, but I disagree with your direction.

[iGhost]

Just now, OrpheusNovum said:

Then point it out so I can see it and improve on myself.

Watch the mechanics of beliefs video from Leo first, then all the rest. You need the foundation of theory. 

Love to you bro

[Leo Gura]

@OrpheusNovum Then go follow a teacher whose direction you agree with.

You are not here with an open mind, so there is no helping you.

These games you're playing are just a waste of time.

[OrpheusNovum]

I still think you're mistaken in your idea of why I'm here. I love new ideas. I can't create my art without good ideas. I'm just passionate, and that's the poet in me, brimming to get out. If you change your mind and want to have a discussion, I'd love to chat. Thanks, ighost, for the sake of being thorough, I'll go check it out.

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[TheAvatarState]

This is Jack's complete waste of time...

1 hour ago, OrpheusNovum said:

Alright cupcake, sit down and buckle up, because I'm going to debunk your claim that I don't know what I'm doing or what I'm talking about, and I'm metaphysically disconnected. I know a lot about self-actualization that you probably don't. 

This is extremely defensive, rude, self-righteous, and ultimately ignorant. You shouldn't talk to anyone this way, let alone the guy who set up the forum you're on and teaches personal development for a living.

 

1 hour ago, OrpheusNovum said:

I don't like being defensive. But I also don't like being told I'm stupid.

Leo never said you're stupid. That was yet another story you told yourself, another projection. He actually wrote out a thoughtful response, and how to help transcend these limiting beliefs and concepts. If you want confirmation on your theories, then please go elsewhere. If you'd like to humbly learn, then you're at the right place.

No, this was not a personal attack. No, there's no need to go defensive because your response will not be met with a reply. Just carefully consider what has been said

[OrpheusNovum]

Look, my gut tells me this doesn't iron out. I want answers. As bad as I want the air to breathe. I don't appreciate the fallacious statement that logic is unformable. Logic is how we ground knowledge. 

Besides, how am I to get to the bottom of truth if I don't approach with the courage of my convictions?

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[tenta]

While enlightenment isn't nihilistic, Leo is contradicting himself with "I want to be happy while children starve in africa" and "I want to be truly Enlightened"

[undeather]

1 minute ago, OrpheusNovum said:

Look, my gut tells me this doesn't iron out. I want answers. As bad as I want the air to breathe. I don't appreciate the fallacious statement that logic is unformable. Logic is how we ground knowledge. 

Look my friend

I havent had any enlightenment experience in my life so far and I am currently not navigating into that direction either. Yet there is undoubtably "something" that people like Leo or the mystics experience on a regular basis which changes the whole game for them. This is my starting point and this should be yours too. If you really want to know what the fuck they are talking about, take their advice and try it out. If you really want answers as bad as air to breathe, then go find them for yourself, using their blueprint. There is no way around this. I realized long time ago that fundamental discussion with people on this forum are not very fruitful. This is not the right place for discussion and in my mind there are 2 possible reasons for this:

1. They know/experience something you dont and you should show some humility towards the seemingly ungraspable nature of reality. 
2. They are all deluded fucks and all this is bullshit. 

Stop challenging their world-view, trust me. You wont get the intellectual discussion you are waiting for. You need to find it out for yourself, that is the only way you will get a satisfying answer. 

[OrpheusNovum]

28 minutes ago, undeather said:

Look my friend

I havent had any enlightenment experience in my life so far and I am currently not navigating into that direction either. Yet there is undoubtably "something" that people like Leo or the mystics experience on a regular basis which changes the whole game for them. This is my starting point and this should be yours too. If you really want to know what the fuck they are talking about, take their advice and try it out. If you really want answers as bad as air to breathe, then go find them for yourself, using their blueprint. There is no way around this. I realized long time ago that fundamental discussion with people on this forum are not very fruitful. This is not the right place for discussion and in my mind there are 2 possible reasons for this:

1. They know/experience something you dont and you should show some humility towards the seemingly ungraspable nature of reality. 
2. They are all deluded fucks and all this is bullshit. 

Stop challenging their world-view, trust me. You wont get the intellectual discussion you are waiting for. You need to find it out for yourself, that is the only way you will get a satisfying answer. 

THANK YOU for this. I'm open to the possibility of everyone experiencing their own reality. I mean, for fuck's sake, look how cool quantum gravity theory is! Ultimately, I think E8 and emergence theory will pan out over string theory, given that it requires 26 dimensions and starts being unstable by 13. Also, if you look at 8-dimensional spheres, they look a lot like ancient models of reality, all stacked onto each other. I'm also open to the possibility that there's DIFFERENT KINDS of enlightenment. Wouldn't that be cool?

I'm grateful that Leo is open minded enough to have an open forum for discussion. But as an actor, you MUST understand I'm hungry to hear people's various experiences! I really hope Leo reconsiders. I may have come out of the gate strong, but part of my concern is that this sort of enlightenment strips away art. And there's nothing I won't do to defend art. Unless of course it violates my oath.

By the way, I have had my own mystical experiences. I'm working towards making psychedelic poetry that triggers the amygdala into a trip. There has to be a very specific structure of metaphor to the verse, though. It would also require spoken word, rather than writing. And it varies in experience from person to person.

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum

[OrpheusNovum]

I'm here because there's a plague of addiction in my family, my dad's an alcoholic, my mom died 7 years ago from drinking, my siblings are heavy drinkers and my uncle overeats out of shame and he's on the border of having a heart attack. I'm here hoping to gain answers as a healer because I've lost enough in life. And I'm frustrated because the only answers I get from here tell me there's nothing but me, and it's pointless to try. I want nothing more than to be enlightened and self-actualized so that I can take away their pain. That's why I'm here. And if you're going to do something worthwhile, you start with WHY.

Edited January 20, 2019 by OrpheusNovum