If no one owes you anything, then why are we obligated to do anything at all?

[Hardkill]

Hey guys, I just realized something. You know how they say that "no one owes you anything" or "the world doesn't owe you anything" even if you do all of the right things. Well, if that's the case then why are any of us obligated to do what should be done for this world? For example, why should we help others who are desperately in need of money or sustenance? Nobody owes them food, liquids, or money just as nobody owes you food, liquids, or money if you were very poor. Let's take even another example. Why should anyone have to be honest about anything with their romance partners or even those who they are dating just casually? Hell, why not just cheat on your partner for that matter? The people you are dating don't owe you honesty and you don't owe them any honesty in return. How about when it comes to paying some money to someone you technically are in debt to? Besides, having to pay taxes and credit card bills because of the laws in our society, we don't owe anyone else to give them money in return for the money we got from others and vice-versa? Even when it comes to friendships and family, no friend or family member owes you their support in any way or form and vice-versa. In fact, they don't owe you any response from them just as you don't owe them any response at all. 

What do you guys say about all of this?

[YaNanNallari]

Well yeah we don't owe and the world doesn't owe us if there are no deals made. It's almost like some people like to just help others

[guisot]

I think you owe the world a lot. Firstly, because you are the world ; so I don't agree with everything you said

[Shin]

Easily explained by studying non dual teachings.

If you are everything, and you refuse to help and live harmoniously with yourself, how could you possibly be happy ?
You're literally making yourself suffer, intentionally or not, directly or not, by being an ass.

And there is nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't feel good.
That's what most people do, and most people are miserable behind their false pretense of happiness.
 

It bows down to a simple question: Do you want to be happy ?

If yes, then you can't be egotistical, judgmental or agressive, both physically and mentally.
This goes deeper than what you think though, it's not about should or shouldn't, about how you act externally, that's what every religious person does and it always backfire.

It's how you feel inside.

So it's not about faking being a good person that cares and gives to other, it's not about controlling/judging yourself for being judgmental, and it's not about controlling yourself to not be a dick, it's about being very super ultra aware of all those tendencies and seeing them disappear by themselves.

Nobody wants to believe this simple truth, but you just need to be aware of what you're thinking and doing, and you'll auto correct it automatically in time.
Of  course this goes faster if you study psychology with Leo's videos and books, and of course spiritual books from spiritual teachers.

Just learn what it is to be aware, with meditation, then train to be aware all the time and not only on the cushion.
That's the number 1 mistake every seeker do, only be mindful on the cushion, which helps a little, but is useless in every day life.

It's when you get a huge slap in your face (figuratively and not ) that it matters to be present and aware of your thoughts/emotions and bodily reactions, not when you're comfy at home.

Everybody can do that, your dog and granma does that, everyday, for hours

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Shin

[RichardY]

Because you're a sane, put together human being. "Noblesse oblige".

[Hardkill]

Valid point have been made here. However, what about when it comes to friends or people we are dating? I mean, there will always be time where people want to respond to any of your messages on any platform for whatever reason they have. It hurts, but none of the people whom you just met or barely know owe you a response. A lot of people cheat on their partners or take advantageous of them. It's not right that those people did that, but they don't owe anything to them really. So why don't we all just be rude, cheat, and lie? We don't owe it to anyone to be a decent human being.

[RichardY]

@Hardkill Then it's not an issue of obligation or simplicity; but one of kindness and connection.

[Key Elements]

In that case, are you ready to live in isolation all by yourself? In the forest? In a cave? In a log cabin? Why live with your parents if they don't owe you anything? Why do you even have a gf? She doesn't owe you anything. You don't owe her anything too. What are you going to do if you need health insurance?

Be ready to grow your own food and have hunting skills. Leo has a documentary or two on his blog about this topic, I believe.

@Hardkill I think you're lucky to have your parents help you throughout your life. I thought you're trying to get your life together. We were having a discussion here.

[smd]

18 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Valid point have been made here. However, what about when it comes to friends or people we are dating? I mean, there will always be time where people want to respond to any of your messages on any platform for whatever reason they have. It hurts, but none of the people whom you just met or barely know owe you a response. A lot of people cheat on their partners or take advantageous of them. It's not right that those people did that, but they don't owe anything to them really. So why don't we all just be rude, cheat, and lie? We don't owe it to anyone to be a decent human being.

 

There can be consequences to your reputation.  If everyone knows you're a liar and a thief, for being honest about, the word will get around.  You might get revenge brought upon yourself.   You could get child support payments handed to you.

And everybody is already lying all the time.  It's a survival mechanism.  A certain class of people get off on cheating because it's a secret.  If it was out in the open & everybody knew, it probably loses the arousal.

You're not owed a reputation either, nor trust.  These things have to be earned and you have to build them by action not words.  Action in this case would be not cheating and not lying all the time.

My manager says that he likes me because I'm reliable and he knows when I'm left to my own devices I'll be able to figure out some problem.  He didn't owe me his trust, but I earned it from him being able to see my results for the past 20 years.  Just some layman off the street isn't going to get that credit and will likely be treated like a second class citizen until he can prove otherwise.

So it's know owing.  It's trusting.  Can you trust someone not to cheat on you or lie?  Do you want to emotionally invest with a cheater?  You'll only have yourself to blame on that mental anguish caused by the heartbreak when it goes south.

[RichardY]

@Hardkill

Reminded of the Daoist 3 treasures. Kindness, Simplicity and Humility. Correspond to "The Knightly virtues". Of course if you are projecting out, and not dealing with pure abstractions, the root is humility.

Kindness
Courage. - Comparison of matters of fact.
Justice. - An artificial virtue based on scarcity. (David Hume)
Mercy. - The quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven. (Shakespeare)

Simplicity
Generosity.
Nobility.

Humility
Faith.
Hope.

[Eric Tarpall]

I think trading is good but giving often isn't. I'm not saying never give but be careful that you're not being exploited. My rule is that I only give things to people if they ask for it. 

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Key Elements said:

In that case, are you ready to live in isolation all by yourself? In the forest? In a cave? In a log cabin? Why live with your parents if they don't owe you anything? Why do you even have a gf? She doesn't owe you anything. You don't owe her anything too. What are you going to do if you need health insurance?

Be ready to grow your own food and have hunting skills. Leo has a documentary or two on his blog about this topic, I believe.

@Hardkill I think you're lucky to have your parents help you throughout your life. I thought you're trying to get your life together. We were having a discussion here.

Well, ok. I don’t think that I can live in a cave by myself and survival out in the wild. I am grateful that my parents have been able to support me well. You’re right, I am lucky in that sense.

The thing is that I because there are “no guarantees in life” I just don’t know what to do or what the best option is for me for the rest of my life. I don’t want to waste my whole life going down a wrong path and then end up regretting it on my deathbed. 

I remember you’re last post on one of my previous threads, where you mentioned about the fact that I need to make money first. So, is making money my life purpose for now?

[Shadowraix]

@Hardkill Your life purpose would be your overarching goal to strive for in your life.

Does making money resonate with you that deeply? If not then making money is likely just a route you can take in order to fulfill your life purpose. This world is a puzzle and sometimes you gotta work the system to reach your goals 

[Key Elements]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

I remember you’re last post on one of my previous threads, where you mentioned about the fact that I need to make money first. So, is making money my life purpose for now?

Nope.  That's not the definition of life purpose. Life purpose has a profound / unique definition that you need to discover for yourself later on.

I really think you got to sit down for a while and listen to yourself. 

You already told us that you love teaching, and you love martial arts. Those are skills that you can use to get a job in, and eventually develop a life purpose later on. It's not just about making money.

Do you want to make some money now to buy stuff that you need? Then, you need a job.

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Hey guys, I just realized something. You know how they say that "no one owes you anything" or "the world doesn't owe you anything" even if you do all of the right things. Well, if that's the case then why are any of us obligated to do what should be done for this world? For example, why should we help others who are desperately in need of money or sustenance? Nobody owes them food, liquids, or money just as nobody owes you food, liquids, or money if you were very poor. Let's take even another example. Why should anyone have to be honest about anything with their romance partners or even those who they are dating just casually? Hell, why not just cheat on your partner for that matter? The people you are dating don't owe you honesty and you don't owe them any honesty in return. How about when it comes to paying some money to someone you technically are in debt to? Besides, having to pay taxes and credit card bills because of the laws in our society, we don't owe anyone else to give them money in return for the money we got from others and vice-versa? Even when it comes to friendships and family, no friend or family member owes you their support in any way or form and vice-versa. In fact, they don't owe you any response from them just as you don't owe them any response at all. 

What do you guys say about all of this?

On the existential level, there is no such thing as "owing". It's not actually real... it's just thoughts. "Owing" is a human concept that was made up for the practical purposes of value exchange within a human society. Similarly, there is no such thing as value, as this is also just a human concept created for the practical purpose of value exchange and decision making within a human society.

But even though "owing" is just a concept, it is an integral tool to the workings of certain human systems to be able to function properly. And there is a difference between functionality and dysfunctionality as well as healthy and unhealthy. Just like a car needs certain parts and components relating together in very specific ways to function and drive from a to be, a human society also needs certain parts and components relating together in very specific ways to function well in a way that's healthy for the inhabitants and is conducive to the harmonious workings within that society.

So, if you want a society to function well and you want to be part of a well-functioning society that runs harmoniously and smoothly (which by nature, you do), then ideas like "I don't owe anyone anything." is a very dangerous idea if taken on by the majority of people. This would lead to a society where everyone struggles on their own, no one helps anyone, and everyones only in it for themselves. 

So, it is inherently healthy on the practical level of human societies for people to live in a harmonious and functional way, where there is a sense of community and everyone having everyone's best interests at heart and receiving the same in exchange. And this is a kind of value exchange. The more you give, the more you receive. The less you give, the less you receive.

So, if a society collectively takes on the idea that "the world doesn't owe you anything." and takes that idea very seriously and buys heavily into the illusion of owing being real, then it will be a very hard, cold, and cruel society to live in that is not conducive to human health and well-being. So, it becomes a less functional society that's cut-throat and hostile, where no one is getting their needs met. And social decay and human suffering will abound. 

But on the ultimate level, there is nothing invalid about social decay or human suffering. There is no value or lack-thereof, so you can't say that it's ultimately wrong that it exists. But if you are a human being who values health, well-being, and harmony (which you instinctually do), then you're going to want to be engaged in a society that has a social contract of mutual value exchange being freely given in at least the most basic of human decencies. 

So, always ask yourself whenever you want to adopt a new belief or M.O.... "If everyone believed this and behaved in this way, would this society still be functional, harmonious, and conducive to health and well-being?" And from there it becomes very simple to know which ways of thinking are harmful to societal functionality and well-being. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

Because it's beneficial.

[Wyze]

25 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, if you want a society to function well and you want to be part of a well-functioning society that runs harmoniously and smoothly (which by nature, you do), then ideas like "I don't owe anyone anything." is a very dangerous idea if taken on by the majority of people. This would lead to a society where everyone struggles on their own, no one helps anyone, and everyones only in it for themselves. 

I can say, I've lived in "cut-throat" cities like this before. It ain't pretty.

Its easy when your young and healthy to say "I don't need anyone and no one should need me." But when shit hits the fan, sometimes its that stranger who ends up helping you (I've also gone through this personally too)

[Hardkill]

12 hours ago, Key Elements said:

Nope.  That's not the definition of life purpose. Life purpose has a profound / unique definition that you need to discover for yourself later on.

I really think you got to sit down for a while and listen to yourself. 

You already told us that you love teaching, and you love martial arts. Those are skills that you can use to get a job in, and eventually develop a life purpose later on. It's not just about making money.

Do you want to make some money now to buy stuff that you need? Then, you need a job.

So, it's not that my life purpose now should be about making more money for myself. It's just the main thing that I need to focus on now is making more money, right?

[Key Elements]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

So, it's not that my life purpose now should be about making more money for myself. It's just the main thing that I need to focus on now is making more money, right?

I'm saying that the definition of life purpose is different. You could work on it anytime, even by yourself. 

Yes, it is helpful for you to get a job now. I would highly recommend it. Then, you could save some money to purchase useful stuff to improve yourself. Research and spend the money wisely.

[Hardkill]

13 hours ago, Emerald said:

On the existential level, there is no such thing as "owing". It's not actually real... it's just thoughts. "Owing" is a human concept that was made up for the practical purposes of value exchange within a human society. Similarly, there is no such thing as value, as this is also just a human concept created for the practical purpose of value exchange and decision making within a human society.

But even though "owing" is just a concept, it is an integral tool to the workings of certain human systems to be able to function properly. And there is a difference between functionality and dysfunctionality as well as healthy and unhealthy. Just like a car needs certain parts and components relating together in very specific ways to function and drive from a to be, a human society also needs certain parts and components relating together in very specific ways to function well in a way that's healthy for the inhabitants and is conducive to the harmonious workings within that society.

So, if you want a society to function well and you want to be part of a well-functioning society that runs harmoniously and smoothly (which by nature, you do), then ideas like "I don't owe anyone anything." is a very dangerous idea if taken on by the majority of people. This would lead to a society where everyone struggles on their own, no one helps anyone, and everyones only in it for themselves. 

So, it is inherently healthy on the practical level of human societies for people to live in a harmonious and functional way, where there is a sense of community and everyone having everyone's best interests at heart and receiving the same in exchange. And this is a kind of value exchange. The more you give, the more you receive. The less you give, the less you receive.

So, if a society collectively takes on the idea that "the world doesn't owe you anything." and takes that idea very seriously and buys heavily into the illusion of owing being real, then it will be a very hard, cold, and cruel society to live in that is not conducive to human health and well-being. So, it becomes a less functional society that's cut-throat and hostile, where no one is getting their needs met. And social decay and human suffering will abound. 

But on the ultimate level, there is nothing invalid about social decay or human suffering. There is no value or lack-thereof, so you can't say that it's ultimately wrong that it exists. But if you are a human being who values health, well-being, and harmony (which you instinctually do), then you're going to want to be engaged in a society that has a social contract of mutual value exchange being freely given in at least the most basic of human decencies. 

So, always ask yourself whenever you want to adopt a new belief or M.O.... "If everyone believed this and behaved in this way, would this society still be functional, harmonious, and conducive to health and well-being?" And from there it becomes very simple to know which ways of thinking are harmful to societal functionality and well-being. 

Yeah, I agree with everything that you said here. So, when it comes to relationships or social situations, then why should I ever trust anyone if there are no guarantees in someone being there for us because neither one of us ever owes anything to the other when it comes to those kind of matters? 

Also, why should I have faith or confidence that our goals or dreams will come true for sure if there are no guarantees that the world doesn't ever owe us success in life?