Final inquiry (for 'experienced' seekers)

[ajasatya]

16 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

Let's not drop into subject-object level. My question was directed to your experience, where do your sun and birds come from?

source!

[tedens]

@Emanyalpsid Yes, this manner 

2 hours ago, Emanyalpsid said:

The first question; What is conciousness?

 

The last question; What is?

is highly effective.   Can be called 'final inquiry'.

Edited January 16, 2019 by tedens

[Emanyalpsid]

24 minutes ago, Preetom said:

1)then those words become the real thing?

2) if it is not spoken about, does that 'thing' get invalidated?

1. You cannot be in Nirvana without understanding the nature of things. If you understand the nature of things, you can describe them.

2. If it is not spoken about, it is not spoken about.

Let's stop with avoiding and questioning the simple questions. If you are fully enlightened, these questions should be relatively easy to answer. Not answering them, but questiong, or ignoring them is just an undermining tactic to not go into the inquiry. So please, either answer the questions or partake in the inquiry.

You didn't answer the question I posed to you earlier, will you do this?

[Emanyalpsid]

16 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

source!

What source?

[Preetom]

1 minute ago, Emanyalpsid said:

1. You cannot be in Nirvana without understanding the nature of things. If you understand the nature of things, you can describe them.

I just realized and decided to call it kjhaskfjfoaxx as the description

[Emanyalpsid]

5 minutes ago, tedens said:

@Emanyalpsid Yes, this manner 

is highly effective.                      Can be called 'final inquiry'.

Thanks for your response, but highly effective describes how you value it, not what it is.

Can be called refers to a synonym.

[tedens]

@Emanyalpsid You just do the meta then, it can't be described. 

 

 

 

[Emanyalpsid]

@tedens I already did (posted a link to the topic), but I am interested if someone is willing to inquire into this, as it is the last stage before completely dissolving. Before venturing into the inquiry you are one (non-duality; transcended consciousness), after the inquiry you are none (Nirvana, dissolved, cessation of consciousness).

Edited January 16, 2019 by Emanyalpsid

[ajasatya]

21 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

What source?

allah!

[Mu_]

3 hours ago, Emanyalpsid said:

I opened this topic to see if someone is willing/daring to test this inquiry. To understand the foundation of the inquiry, you must be beyond the subject-object consciousness (that is why I wrote 'experienced' seekers), which means you must know that we are not looking for words, although the realizations can be put in words. So the point from which you venture should be, that you are left with consciousness and nothing else. Whether you call this consciousness Brahman or absolute infinity, doesn't matter.

The inquiry has two questions on which you should find an answer. The order of the questions is sequential, so you start with the first question and if you have an answer on that, you start with the second question. If you have completed the inquiry you will understand why it is final.

The first question; What is conciousness?

 

The last question; What is?

 

If you didn't find the right answer to the first question, you will end up back at the first question if you answer the second question.

 

Material to help you with the inquiry can be found here; https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/30407-liberation-from-samsara/

I am glad to help in the best way I can.

In my experience of such things, there isn't a particular "thing" that can be pointed to, to answer such a question.  Any experience that answers the question is in essence a metaphor for the actual.  Philosophical theory, logical connections, scientific examples can also be useful in this domain to again metaphorically point to a broader encompassment of "what is", because just non-questioning, no-mind and human refereed "direct experience" isn't a full answer either in pointing to Truth of what is....

 

Edit: Although even the process of creating and experiencing the metaphor is the source in action as well, so its not to undermine this "action" nor deny its pointing because its never not the whole picture.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Mu_

[tedens]

@Emanyalpsid Can Mario discribe what is beyond the monitor?

[Forestluv]

@Emanyalpsid Great inquiry questions to reveal emptiness prior to the questions. In that emptiness, distinctions collapse and thought impulses have no more relevance than bird chirps. At that point, trying to find an answer is as silly as trying to find an answer to the question "Tweet, tweeet. . . tweet, tweet, tweet?".

[Truth Addict]

28 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

allah!

I guess your point is that It can't be pointed to.

Because every arrow, word, picture, sound, etc... is It.

Then again, what is It?

You may say: nothing, but where does this leave us?

It's something that can't possibly be defined or further questioned.

And so we can finally stop and drop all concepts and questions, etc... and surrender.

What do you think? @Emanyalpsid

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I guess your point is that It can't be pointed to.

Because every arrow, word, picture, sound, etc... is It.

Then again, what is It?

You may say: nothing, but where does this leave us?

It's something that can't possibly be defined or further questioned.

And so we can finally stop and drop all concepts and questions, etc... and surrender.

Without the direct experience, that will not satisfy the ego. It will continue to think in distinctions: symbols, words and concepts.

When there is peace in silent stillness, the seeking energy to make sense of it evaporates. It's like trying to use nonsense to make sense of nonsense. For example" "Is a triclof of winflick beyond the stiflet of jangdon if kamdrin is portek with latlim?". One indication of a mind that hasn't gone full monty is that the mind is still conceptualizing in any manner whatsoever. Even saying one word is too much.

[Emanyalpsid]

1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

In my experience of such things, there isn't a particular "thing" that can be pointed to, to answer such a question. 

But the experience of them is there, they are there, although they are formless (not manifested). So what are they?

But you are in the right direction that it is not a particular 'thing', because they are formless they are hard to identify. However, they manifest in form if the conditions are met. A flower is the manifestation of 'is'. If the flower has not manifested because the conditions are not met, it is formless. To use an example with the flower; if you plant the seed you already know that the flower is there, it however has not manifested itself yet (it is formless) because it needs to grow. But you cannot say the flower was never there, it is just formless. So you can plant the seed and let the flower manifest, or you do not plant the seed and let the flower be formless. You know the flower is in the seed. 

The same goes for consciousness, it can manifest if the conditions are met, which means you identify with it in the mind. It can manifest if a human body grows and identifies with experience. You don't even have to call it consciousness, the identification with experience suffices. But it is the same as with the flower (manifestation), it was already present in the seed (formless). 

Now we have identified them, still the question remains what they are.

Quote

Any experience that answers the question is in essence a metaphor for the actual.  Philosophical theory, logical connections, scientific examples can also be useful in this domain to again metaphorically point to a broader encompassment of "what is", because just non-questioning, no-mind and human refereed "direct experience" isn't a full answer either in pointing to Truth of what is....

You are right in that the words would only be concepts, but they can describe what is happening, that is the inquiry. Like I did above. After the inquiry it can be summarized. Like I said, you must not look for a word or a thing, then you look for form consciousness.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Emanyalpsid

[Truth Addict]

@Serotoninluv

Thank you.

I kind of get it. It doesn't need reason to exist. Rather, reason needs It to exist.

Mind can't solve it too.

Because it's prior to everything.

It's now, and it's infinite.

Throw me a banana! Let's live!

[Emanyalpsid]

45 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emanyalpsid Great inquiry questions to reveal emptiness prior to the questions. In that emptiness, distinctions collapse and thought impulses have no more relevance than bird chirps. At that point, trying to find an answer is as silly as trying to find an answer to the question "Tweet, tweeet. . . tweet, tweet, tweet?".

Indeed, and the emptiness is a big hint to the answers.

This goes beyond thought.

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

Indeed, and the emptiness is a big hint to the answers.

This goes beyond thought.

There are still subtle distinctions here. There are no questions or answers when all distinctions collapse.

Go prior to the first word, sit and be. As soon as the first word arises, let it go and return prior to the word. 

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Serotoninluv

It doesn't need reason to exist. Rather, reason needs It to exist.

Mind can't solve it too.

Because it's prior to everything.

It's now, and it's infinite.

That's one way of looking at it. Yet, be aware that no single perspective is "correct". Each perceptive is merely a pointer. There are many different pointers and it's easy to become attached to a particular pointer. Then, the mind becomes fixated on manipulating and developing the pointer, rather than the direct experience of that which is being pointed to.

For example, it would also be "correct" to say that "it" is everything. Thus, reason is "it", since reason is within everything. 

[Mu_]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There are still subtle distinctions here. There are no questions or answers when all distinctions collapse.

In that particular moment there are no questions and answers, and all distinctions collapse, but that doesn't invalidate something happening or something never not always being the case.  Which is were questioning and finding out into ones nature and what this is all about comes in, perhaps you could say from "what is" itself.