Pickup is being criminalized

[ajasatya]

On 14/01/2019 at 7:51 PM, Eric Tarpall said:

I think it's okay to "objectify" the opposite sex. No one gets hurt by that. I don't mind if a woman sees me as a sex object. Sure I would like a deeper connection with a woman but I'm not owed that. You see what I'm saying?

i only see how small you think of yourself!

[Hardkill]

25 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

i only see how small you think of yourself!

As small as his size is downstairs.

[Andreas]

Yes, that is indeed a problem. You basicly have 3 alternatives. 

1. Get a longterm relationship and leave this pickuplifestyle forever. 

2. Move to another country where you can live normally. 

3. Become a social justice warrior to avenge the women. This is the counter-intuitive move (lol). This will look stupid at first but will get you a lot of female friends.

Bonus: Join the "men going their own way" movement and start living inside your comfortzone while watching Jordan Peterson daily. Never stop complaining, never take responsibility. 

[ajasatya]

1 hour ago, Andreas said:

Join the "men going their own way" movement and start living inside your comfortzone while watching Jordan Peterson daily. Never stop complaining, never take responsibility.

oh jeez, you've completely misunderstood jordan peterson. he's against sjw's, mgtow's and lack of responsibility.

[Eric Tarpall]

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

i only see how small you think of yourself!

My ego is the size of jupiter lol

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

As small as his size is downstairs.

My nose compensates for that.

1 hour ago, Andreas said:

1. Get a longterm relationship and leave this pickuplifestyle forever. 

It's already too late for that. A healthy long term relationship has to start when you're in your early teens.

[ajasatya]

1 minute ago, Eric Tarpall said:

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

i only see how small you think of yourself!

My ego is the size of jupiter lol

that's exactly what i meant 

2 minutes ago, Eric Tarpall said:

1 hour ago, Andreas said:

1. Get a longterm relationship and leave this pickuplifestyle forever.

It's already too late for that. A healthy long term relationship has to start when you're in your early teens.

what the fudge?! i am 29 y/o (i'll be 30 in less than 1 month) and i met my wife in 2016. clearly not on my early teens. where does this dogma of yours come from?

[Andreas]

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

oh jeez, you've completely misunderstood jordan peterson. he's against sjw's, mgtow's and lack of responsibility.

No this is all self deception. You have to follow the counterintuitive nature of life. You see, this is very deep. Epistemological deception. 

[ajasatya]

2 minutes ago, Andreas said:

No this is all self deception. You have to follow the counterintuitive nature of life. You see, this is very deep. Epistemological deception. 

wow, i actually cracked laughing hahahahahahaha

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Eric Tarpall said:

My ego is the size of jupiter lol

My nose compensates for that.

It's already too late for that. A healthy long term relationship has to start when you're in your early teens.

I met my very first real girlfriend last year when I was 30 years old and I don’t usually like to brag, but a lot of people throughout my whole life have told me that I look like a model or actor. Hell, some have even said that I am better looking than A LOT of models and actors, including celebrity level ones out there.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Hardkill

[Emerald]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 5:51 PM, Eric Tarpall said:

How does it harm me? I think it's okay to "objectify" the opposite sex. No one gets hurt by that. I don't mind if a woman sees me as a sex object. Sure I would like a deeper connection with a woman but I'm not owed that. You see what I'm saying?

I was a really romantically precocious kid before any of my male peers were. So, from the age of three onward, I would have a lot of attractions that were never reciprocated. And I thought it was because I was ugly and that no guy would ever like me in my entire life. And I had this idea looming in the background until I turned 12 and started to get male attention. But prior to that, I was so desperate for male attention that I wished that I would be looked upon sexually as my topmost desire. And it would have been the greatest fantasy for me if I had a lot of guys seeing me as attractive and focusing toward me in a sexual way. That was the material of fantasy as I thought that I would never have a boyfriend.

Then, when I was 12 I got my wish. And it was the gift that kept on giving and giving and giving and giving. I got a lot of male attention from that point onward... from peers and sometimes full grown men.

To give an analogy, it was like being starved for the first 12 years of my life, and then finally being fed. And I felt a great relief that I was finally not starving anymore. But then the food kept coming and coming and coming to the point of forcefeeding: forcefeeding by peers and adults alike. And I was fed so much that I would puke everywhere but then still have more food being shoved in my mouth. And there were times. And I just wanted it to stop. But then sometimes I'd get genuinely hungry but wouldn't want to eat because of the trauma of forcefeeding. And then everything shouted at me... "Don't run from it, your purpose in life is to be fed. That's your value in this world." And this, of course, would give a person a really complicated relationship to their own natural hunger because they now relate it only to forcefeeding and the discomforts of being lambasted with food wherever they go.

So, understand that you feel this way because you're lacking in sexual attention. You can't understand why sexual objectification is harmful because, to you, the idea of being sexually objectified is desirable. And that's because it's just an abstract idea for you. It's pure fantasy to you. But the reality of the matter is much darker, insidious, and more complicated. And it cuts you off from your natural sexual desires because you being to feel like an object and that your sexuality belongs to others and not to yourself. You, the object, are not meant to receive pleasure... only to be a means to pleasure for the other person who is the subject of the sex act. 

You have no idea what it is to be sexually objectified to your core, and have that idea so deeply driven into you that it puts you in this antagonistic relationship with your sexual instincts. You can still go full force toward your sexual desires in an a to b fashion, because there is a barrier there other than space. You're allowed to have them because your view of yourself is as a subject. But if I did that, then I would end up in a lot of unsavory/pleasant (can't discern which because I'm conflicted) situations that would draw up feelings of objectification and worthlessness in me. There feels literally like there's no outlet to own your sexual desires when you've had your status as object driven into you.

So, this is why objectification is harmful and why you don't see it as such because of your innocence to it.

[Eric Tarpall]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

You, the object, are not meant to receive pleasure... only to be a means to pleasure for the other person who is the subject of the sex act.

I think what's really going on here is that you don't want to give pleasure. You only want to recieve it. And that's fine. Everyone is like that including myself. People only care about their own pleasure. Sometimes I convince myself that I would love to please a woman and make her happy but that's only because I expect to get the same thing in return. 

[Emerald]

28 minutes ago, Eric Tarpall said:

I think what's really going on here is that you don't want to give pleasure. You only want to recieve it. And that's fine. Everyone is like that including myself. People only care about their own pleasure. Sometimes I convince myself that I would love to please a woman and make her happy but that's only because I expect to get the same thing in return. 

No. You misinterpreted the entire thing. 

[ajasatya]

@Emerald he was talking about himself on that one. at this point, the only way he can get help is through tons of suffering. suffering can shatter even the biggest egos... it's a beautiful thing.

[Shin]

[RareGodzilla]

What bothers me is the blatant virtue signing. Gillette talks about how they care about women etc... But at the same time they don't have a problem with practising the "pink tax", meaning that identical female pink razors are more expensive than male razors. 

[Emerald]

53 minutes ago, RareGodzilla said:

What bothers me is the blatant virtue signing. Gillette talks about how they care about women etc... But at the same time they don't have a problem with practising the "pink tax", meaning that identical female pink razors are more expensive than male razors. 

I have a bit of an issue with Pop Feminism because it's really just selling their product and using the Feminist narratives of the day to do so... and usually in a transparent way. So, I'm sure that Gillette doesn't genuinely care about these issues as a whole company. A bunch of people just sat around at a board meeting and went, "How can we sell more sh*t to people." Then someone on the board was like... "How about a Feminist angle..." 

It's the same with the Ghostbusters movie that came out a few years ago. I'm sure they were all sitting around a board meeting like... "Okay. The script is mediocre and sequels are usually bad, so not a lot of people see them. Plus, you're going to have long time fans that will be hyper critical about the movie no matter what. So... how do we suck the most money out of people when we damn sure don't have a good enough movie to get the advertisement of word of mouth. HOLD THE PHONE! I know. I know. I found the gimmick... It's Ghostbusters... only with women. Female Ghostbusters are the perfect gimmick to get people focused on our movie. Anyone remotely Feminist will feel obligated to see and report favorably on our movie. Then, anyone who's a misogynist will be so busy complaining about the movie that they won't notice the TONS of free publicity they'll be giving us. And since there are so many normies who don't want to seem misogynistic, we'll get people coming into the theatre to avoid looking like those complaining  internet misogynists."

That said, if you want to change some societal structures and question commonly accepted and ingrained ideas about manhood, you have to water it down to get to the masses. So, I do see that Pop Feminism has its place in popular culture. I prefer it to be there rather than it not to be there. And I'm glad these issues are in the limelight, since there are many stones still unturned.

But it is also pretty cringey, and it gets on my nerves to. Especially since it doesn't really give anything revelatory to anyone which is where the real growth is at.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Emerald

[Psychonaut]

 

[billiesimon]

17 hours ago, Emerald said:

I was a really romantically precocious kid before any of my male peers were. So, from the age of three onward, I would have a lot of attractions that were never reciprocated. And I thought it was because I was ugly and that no guy would ever like me in my entire life. And I had this idea looming in the background until I turned 12 and started to get male attention. But prior to that, I was so desperate for male attention that I wished that I would be looked upon sexually as my topmost desire. And it would have been the greatest fantasy for me if I had a lot of guys seeing me as attractive and focusing toward me in a sexual way. That was the material of fantasy as I thought that I would never have a boyfriend.

Then, when I was 12 I got my wish. And it was the gift that kept on giving and giving and giving and giving. I got a lot of male attention from that point onward... from peers and sometimes full grown men.

To give an analogy, it was like being starved for the first 12 years of my life, and then finally being fed. And I felt a great relief that I was finally not starving anymore. But then the food kept coming and coming and coming to the point of forcefeeding: forcefeeding by peers and adults alike. And I was fed so much that I would puke everywhere but then still have more food being shoved in my mouth. And there were times. And I just wanted it to stop. But then sometimes I'd get genuinely hungry but wouldn't want to eat because of the trauma of forcefeeding. And then everything shouted at me... "Don't run from it, your purpose in life is to be fed. That's your value in this world." And this, of course, would give a person a really complicated relationship to their own natural hunger because they now relate it only to forcefeeding and the discomforts of being lambasted with food wherever they go.

So, understand that you feel this way because you're lacking in sexual attention. You can't understand why sexual objectification is harmful because, to you, the idea of being sexually objectified is desirable. And that's because it's just an abstract idea for you. It's pure fantasy to you. But the reality of the matter is much darker, insidious, and more complicated. And it cuts you off from your natural sexual desires because you being to feel like an object and that your sexuality belongs to others and not to yourself. You, the object, are not meant to receive pleasure... only to be a means to pleasure for the other person who is the subject of the sex act. 

You have no idea what it is to be sexually objectified to your core, and have that idea so deeply driven into you that it puts you in this antagonistic relationship with your sexual instincts. You can still go full force toward your sexual desires in an a to b fashion, because there is a barrier there other than space. You're allowed to have them because your view of yourself is as a subject. But if I did that, then I would end up in a lot of unsavory/pleasant (can't discern which because I'm conflicted) situations that would draw up feelings of objectification and worthlessness in me. There feels literally like there's no outlet to own your sexual desires when you've had your status as object driven into you.

So, this is why objectification is harmful and why you don't see it as such because of your innocence to it.

It's a very interesting point of view, but I think there are a decent amount of women who don't identify with this issue (I mean, I have some female friends who don't have this issue), but it's definitely a real problem and very worth of discussion!

Now, my first spontaneous question is: what about taking action for a woman in your position?
Example: you meet for the first time a man who excites you, inspires you etc... And you want to go on a date with him and see what happens. What stops you from just being the subject and asking him out, planning the date, planning how to dress to impress him, strategizing the right timing for the texting etc...? 
I mean, you are totally in your power to do that. What's making you feel like an object if you actually can chase him down with strategy and the drive to succeed?

I see that a lot of girls I know (22 - 29) are somehow lost when I talk to them about this... it's like talking in chinese. I think that being a cute girl somehow "spoils" you (you as a collective female pronoun) to the fact that you don't have to hustle to get success. This has triggered in me A LOT of vagina envy for girls in my teenage years. I wanted to have the power to receive "passive income" and both the power to be proactive (a power that girls actually can use but rarely do).

This vagina envy is real in a lot of young men (I'm still somehow recovering from it) and I wanted to hear your opinion on these issues (female passivity and male vagina-envy).

[kev014]

1 hour ago, billiesimon said:

This vagina envy is real in a lot of young men (I'm still somehow recovering from it) and I wanted to hear your opinion on these issues (female passivity and male vagina-envy).

This envy goes away when you realize that hot girls who never have to work for anything in their lives later end up being screwed. They've been complimented, validated, given love, sex and money since they were very young. All of their confidence is externally based and they are not forced to develop their character from the inside out. When their looks start to deteriorate later in life, this is super difficult for many of them as this is their entire basis for their self worth. A man on the other hand (regardless of his looks) must develop himself if he wishes to move up the social ladder and attain a higher caliber woman. Not being given everything on a silver platter is a blessing. If tomorrow you woke up rich as fuck, super hot girlfriend, enlightened, etc etc everything you ever wanted...you'd enjoy those things for sure but you wouldn't feel any different looking in the mirror. You wouldn't appreciate those gifts the same as if you'd earned them through hard work. You as a man get to go out and earn your life, to be the main driver of your success, nobody else. That's pretty awesome if you ask me...

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, billiesimon said:

It's a very interesting point of view, but I think there are a decent amount of women who don't identify with this issue (I mean, I have some female friends who don't have this issue), but it's definitely a real problem and very worth of discussion!

Now, my first spontaneous question is: what about taking action for a woman in your position?
Example: you meet for the first time a man who excites you, inspires you etc... And you want to go on a date with him and see what happens. What stops you from just being the subject and asking him out, planning the date, planning how to dress to impress him, strategizing the right timing for the texting etc...? 
I mean, you are totally in your power to do that. What's making you feel like an object if you actually can chase him down with strategy and the drive to succeed?

I see that a lot of girls I know (22 - 29) are somehow lost when I talk to them about this... it's like talking in chinese. I think that being a cute girl somehow "spoils" you (you as a collective female pronoun) to the fact that you don't have to hustle to get success. This has triggered in me A LOT of vagina envy for girls in my teenage years. I wanted to have the power to receive "passive income" and both the power to be proactive (a power that girls actually can use but rarely do).

This vagina envy is real in a lot of young men (I'm still somehow recovering from it) and I wanted to hear your opinion on these issues (female passivity and male vagina-envy).

Well, most of my issues are issues of identity and extend far beyond the realm of romance and dating, which is something that I don't feel like a lot of men grasp because it's such a uniquely female issue. Most men tend to think of these sexual issues as being only sexual. But these are not just bedroom worries. These are feelings that I carry with me everywhere and they pepper my relationship to myself and where I believe my personal value lies and what my purpose is. And it becomes all the clearer as I get further and further removed from my maiden's phase. It's a feeling like I exist only for the pleasure of another and if I can't be that then I'm nothing. So, I've internalized this idea that I'm only entitled to desire and existence itself if I am even more desired back. 

But in regard to a situation where I really like a guy, I choose not to ask him out because the stakes are too high. I only like one guy at a time and those attractions tend to last about 6 months or more and they're really intense. So, if I ask him out and get a "no", then I (number one) will feel like I'm no longer entitled to my feelings of attraction because they aren't reciprocated, and (number two) I'd have to wait six months or more before I stumble into another attraction. So, men are not interchangeable for me in the way that women are interchangeable for men in the initial stages of attraction. So, I don't approach for fear of rejection and the implications of that. 

Also, there are a lot of situations that I've gotten into when I was very new to dating and romance that I really got hurt in sharing my feelings or being "too forward" which is a consideration that women always have to contend with... or face the unsavory consequences. A lot of men will hate you for everything they love you for. They want you to be easy and sexual, but they'll hate you when they're done with you.

Once, when I was in the eighth grade, I really liked this kid named Nathan and we were always flirting in class and I thought he liked me back. And at the time, I thought men and women got attractions in the same way. So, I thought his feelings toward me were mutual. And he asked me if I wanted to ask at around the same time to get a hall pass from the teacher and meet him somewhere to make out for a few minutes. And I excitedly agreed as it seemed like a confirmation that he really liked me like I liked him... because why else would he want to kiss me if he didn't. But it turned out that it was just a joke, and he then used that as an opportunity to make fun of me and slut shame me. And he involved several of his friends in on the joke that was intended only to embarrass me. 

Also, the same year, I was asked out by a boy named Robert, and I was so happy to be going out with him and that he liked me back. But my friend Joe, overheard him in class talking about how gross and slutty I am and that he actually hates me but wanted to get with me because I was easy. Now, I poured chocolate milk on Joe's head in the lunchroom when he told me because I didn't believe him because I didn't want to believe him. So, I definitely shot the messenger on that one.

And when I was in the ninth grade, I was no longer so eager to get a boyfriend because I'd kind of learned my lesson about that. But I was still very flirtatious in demeanor as this is (was) my natural way. So, a lot of guys in my friend group would take that as an invitation to touch me inappropriately and go over my boundaries. We were a bunch of weird alternative kids and we always celebrated Wednesdays as "hump" day, where we'd just go up to eachother in the spirit of good fun and start humping one another and we also hugged a lot. But quite a few guys would violate the etiquette of hump day and make it genuinely sexual when it was not actually meant to be. And one guy in particular would violate the etiquette of the hugs and would make the hug with me in particular, too long and would caress my back with his fingers, so that ever time I hugged him I would feel very violated. 

And then a lot of girls would be very mean to me and slut shame me because I hung out with a lot of guys despite the fact that I was actually quite reserved in terms of actually dating anyone. 

And this is not even to mention, the type of attention I would get from full grown adult men... which was very uncomfortable.

The fact of the matter is that being a woman, your sexuality from puberty onward has been commodified and appraised. Your sexuality is a high dollar item. And much of society sees that it is merely a commodity to be used up by men, who are the assumed subjects of the transaction where you are the thing being transacted. 

So, there is a lot of wounding a baggage around owning your own sexuality as a woman. It's like taking a swim in lemon juice when you have a bunch of wounds on you.

So, the experience of being a woman is quite schizophrenic relative to your own sexuality, as there is no space for you to really hold your sexual feelings and be accepted... except perhaps in more progressive circles. Men want you to be forward, and then hate you for being forward. Other women will be jealous as well and hate you for simply being women. The media sends all kinds of messages (especially back when I was coming up) that the world loves an openly sexy and sexual woman, and as a child dreaming of growing up and growing breasts and being appreciated in the same way. And then, when getting to that age, realizing that society loves you for that and wants you to be only that... but also, if you become that, you become a laughing stock and the butt of a joke. 

So, I learned around age 15, to put on a facade of non-sexuality and the facade works well to keep out unwanted attention. And I still keep it, because I don't want anyone over my boundaries. And it's kept in place by the memory of many traumas incurred along the way. But it keeps away what is genuine and open, and impedes my ability to feel like it's okay to have my own desires as I've internalized since birth the idea that I am object and not subject. And that if I take my sexuality as a subject and go toward what I would want more freely, there is punishment awaiting. 

So, it is not as simple as that. Men can freely be sexual and own their sexuality. There is no shame in having sexual feelings as a man because hyper sexuality is expected and even desired. But a woman will be judged harshly for her sexuality and slut shamed if she is perceived as too forward. And it can lead to a lot of unsavory experiences. So, most women learn to suppress and to just be a lady in waiting and do our best to work around the invisible barriers that men don't see. 

But what I love is when I'm attracted to a man who doesn't have any of this baggage and doesn't project onto my images of succubi when I like him. And in these cases, things flow naturally and I can actually let go of those cares. And I get a really clear sense for who is afflicted and who is unafflicted.