The difference between personal development and spiritual expansion (?)

[ivankiss]

@Anton Rogachevski

This is all just a delusion anyways

 

[ivankiss]

@Nahm And it's kickass

I see where you're going tho. Thanks.

[Nahm]

@ivankiss ♥️

[ivankiss]

@Nahm  ♥️ ? 

[SOUL]

These are just my perspective from my experience of these, not an absolute "truth" or anything.

"Spirituality" is the nature and awareness of being, the expression of presence within our inner experience. In each moment it's an ever changing state of being that is our perception and experience of this moment, the now, in awareness.

"Development" is an interaction with change.  Change is constantly ongoing and either it's happening randomly unawares to us or we are intimately aware of it's happening and are cooperating with the process of the change in us through awareness.

So they are really just facets of the same experience. Spirituality is the presence of being with it's evolving nature and development is the interaction with the changing state of being. Both are experienced through the awareness of being present.

Oh.... and who asks who of who? WHO!

[Forestluv]

40 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Oh.... and who asks who of who? WHO!

Who let the dogs out?
Woof, woof, woof, woof, woof 

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Who let the thoughts out?

Fixed it for you haha

[Forestluv]

4 hours ago, SOUL said:

Fixed it for you haha

?? ?

[Arthur]

20 hours ago, ivankiss said:

The expansion will occur regardless of conceptual models and their accuracy.

Yea I agree with this part.

It does not matter whether your "goal" is to become an enlightened master or a professional athlete. Those are merely labels. And they come with a certain conceptual model and environment. Both conceptual paths towards this conceptual goal have thwhy set of challenges; obstacles.

I don't really buy into that. Enlightened master's path is not conceptual.

What if; a spiritually oriented individual saying that out loud is actually a part of the athlathlete's path of transcending limitations? What if your argument is merely a distraction to him? An obstacle for him to recognize and overcome.

Spirituality is a very specific activity. It is only concerned with directly getting who you are. Athletes, artists, scientists have their own expression, but they are not in the same domain as Spirituality. They might involve deep states of flow, but not an existential experience of reality.

What if the athlete is closer to his version of enlightenment than you are?

Conceptual and written Spirituality is basically poetry, and you can easily compare that to artistic expression. But true spirituality is nothing alike.

The athlete does not pay attention to distractions. He maintains focus on what is and shoots towards the goal. At that precise moment, he might as well be because the ability of self and merged with the absolute. He might be enlightened indeed and have no need to let everybody know. He himself does not know, probably. That is why it's legit; one could argue.

States of flow and no-self are amazing. But I wouldn't equate that to waking up from the dream permanently.

"Spirituality" is a lifestyle. It is a perspective.

It can be if you want it to be. It certainly seems so to the outside. But a real direct understanding is undisputed. It manifests to outside observers as mumbo-jumbo woo-woo talk. Like some spiritual mask you have to wear, or some adopted behaviour. Yet it is none of that. The insight is real, and that's important.

 

[ivankiss]

@Joseph Maynor Seems like you have a lot of work going on Cool system.

@Arthur How is any path not conceptual? There is nowhere to go, nothing to achieve.

You and me; we cannot possibly know how enlightened the master really is. We just see an old guy in lotus position, talking about enlightenment. He is an appearance.

Knowing everything about enlightenment does not equal actual enlightenment.

It may be good to know to explain certain things; but it also may be completely useless.

That depends on the nature of the path, I guess. Which is conceptual

Don't think the tree is not enlightened just because it is unable to explain everything about it.

Altough if you listen carefully; it might as well do just that

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, ivankiss said:

How is any path not conceptual?

Try Reiki to experience a peak of beyond conceptual. Work your way up to an hour a day of quality meditation / yoga. Then of course, disciplined practices, trips, etc. So far, you’ve only talked about it, so it seems entirely conceptual to you. Stop listening to people who have not done / don’t do the work, yet tell you all about it - they’re so deeply fooled by ego their words resonate with your ego, keeping it all conceptual. They’re feeding their ego, but the nature of that is, they don’t know it. This work is much trickier than you have yet understood.

2 hours ago, ivankiss said:

we cannot possibly know how enlightened the master really is.

Yes you can. You can be completely aware every master is you! That is literally what they are telling you, but again....the work.

2 hours ago, ivankiss said:

That depends on the nature of the path, I guess. Which is conceptual

If the path is conceptual, you are not yet on the path. 

[ivankiss]

@Nahm My peak beyond conceptual occured long ago. I am an artist Nahm. A deeply passionate one.

The thing that people call "the peak", or "the flow state" is something I was engaged in since I can remember, pretty much.

I litterally had nothing but music. Since I know myself as Ivan. No real family, no real friends, no real anything really. Only music. Only melodies. Only flow. Only passion.

That is how I am here where I am. I did not choose to be involved in any movement or group. I just live my passion. With my every breath. There is no movement I make without consciously aiming for passion. I did this while I was asleep as well, automatically. Since I became aware of it now, I can keep doing what I was doing since forever; with even more passion and love; consciously.

Also; I'd say I gained some solid wisdom during the journey so far. It was not my intention tho. I was never a way too "knowledge-oriented" person. Yet it happened, naturally. I seem to see through a lot of things and understend them. Without much effort or trying. It just came along.

I do not fear attachment; I do not fear detachment. And I also have no need to present any evidence.

I proved to myself what I doubted. I do not require confirmations.

Spirituality helped me understand a lot of stuff. Helped me see my own steps more clearly. Helped me heal wounds. Helped me see myself.

But all of it occured within stillness. Within the nothingness.

I know myself as a creator. As both nothing and everything. I do not care if it is true or not. I cannot be anything else but the creator; the artist.

I consciously choose that.

Am I attached to that label? Do I identify with it? Yes. And totally not.

Love.

[Nahm]

@ivankiss Cool. Bullshit, but, love ya, and, cool. 

[ivankiss]

23 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@ivankiss Cool. Bullshit, but, love ya, and, cool. 

Says who?

Is there a hidden intention? Am I supposed to realize something? Am I supposed to start doubting myself; again?

Am I supposed to start questioning in circles; hearing only my own echo?

Why? Really, why?

What's there or anywhere else that could possibly be better, more enlightened than this moment right now, right here?

How does non existance beat existance?

 

[Nahm]

@ivankiss Says you, because, nonduality. 

[ivankiss]

@Nahm Yes. And it means nothing. So I make something out of it.

I choose to believe you exist, Nahm.

And you're awesome.