Taking an antidepressant during the dark night of the soul

[Ninie]

Hello. posting here for the first time..

I feel like I am the most turning and decisive point of my journey. I am stuck in a place which can have only one exit - knowing the truth. I feel like I've got nothing to lose - even though it may not seem so from the outside, looking at my studies, "success", personal image and etc. But despite all this, I know it is a proper moment to surrender to the "not-knowingness" of it all. And I have done so - I actually had an experience couple days ago when my ego became so tired of the seeking, that I just gave it up and "became present", to say so. I released all seeking, thinking, gave up all the stories and kind of started living in the now. But the mind couldn't bear it for more than a day and started obsessing and screaming again about how "this is not it". So I became even more confused, depressed so that my mind seems to have created a state where I should either awaken or suffer intensely and obsessively think about "awakening". No in between. No intervals. No "normal life". Everything is irrelevant but this.

So this morning the depression and suffering became so intense that I just broke down and took an antidepressant - just 50 mg or Zoloft - one of the pills I've used for the past years for my depression. It used to take at least several days for the effect to kick in, but now it worked miraculously fast - like an anesthetic. I'm still stuck in the same place but it's like the fire is distinguished, and even though it's a physical relief, I don't feel relief on a mental state, as I know everything is just right there where it was, I just have become numb to it.

But the more the ego attacks, the more it loses its strength, doesn't it? I mentally know that resistance is a good sign, although it's accompanied with such tiring sensations of suffering. So will numbing the mind with pills slow down the process I'm going through now? Will it reduce the effectiveness? 

[Esoteric]

26 minutes ago, Ninie said:

Hello. posting here for the first time..

I feel like I am the most turning and decisive point of my journey. I am stuck in a place which can have only one exit - knowing the truth. I feel like I've got nothing to lose - even though it may not seem so from the outside, looking at my studies, "success", personal image and etc. But despite all this, I know it is a proper moment to surrender to the "not-knowingness" of it all. And I have done so - I actually had an experience couple days ago when my ego became so tired of the seeking, that I just gave it up and "became present", to say so. I released all seeking, thinking, gave up all the stories and kind of started living in the now. But the mind couldn't bear it for more than a day and started obsessing and screaming again about how "this is not it". So I became even more confused, depressed so that my mind seems to have created a state where I should either awaken or suffer intensely and obsessively think about "awakening". No in between. No intervals. No "normal life". Everything is irrelevant but this.

So this morning the depression and suffering became so intense that I just broke down and took an antidepressant - just 50 mg or Zoloft - one of the pills I've used for the past years for my depression. It used to take at least several days for the effect to kick in, but now it worked miraculously fast - like an anesthetic. I'm still stuck in the same place but it's like the fire is distinguished, and even though it's a physical relief, I don't feel relief on a mental state, as I know everything is just right there where it was, I just have become numb to it.

But the more the ego attacks, the more it loses its strength, doesn't it? I mentally know that resistance is a good sign, although it's accompanied with such tiring sensations of suffering. So will numbing the mind with pills slow down the process I'm going through now? Will it reduce the effectiveness? 

Not necessarily. Depends on how you deal with it and how much you let go. If you continously get caught up in it, it will never let go. Its not gonna stop unless you stop putting energy into it. I feel like putting anti-depressants into your system is just a quick relief. My two cents.

[Ninie]

@Esoteric yeah it is a quick relief, I agree, it creates a false peace for a short time, but I can't be deluded by it, as everything still comes up each second, just the emotional reaction is a bit milder. And I intuitively sense that this numbing can only damage the process, if there's any..

I also know that I should let go, but as soon as I have an intention to let go and surrender, mind starts making stories and comments about this "letting go" and "surrendering", then I try to let even that go, and so on.. constant anxiety loop.

I just want to ask, what do you exactly mean by it "stopping"? I mean, what can be the outcome of it stopping? Like, then what...?

 

[Esoteric]

2 hours ago, Ninie said:

@Esoteric yeah it is a quick relief, I agree, it creates a false peace for a short time, but I can't be deluded by it, as everything still comes up each second, just the emotional reaction is a bit milder. And I intuitively sense that this numbing can only damage the process, if there's any..

I also know that I should let go, but as soon as I have an intention to let go and surrender, mind starts making stories and comments about this "letting go" and "surrendering", then I try to let even that go, and so on.. constant anxiety loop.

I just want to ask, what do you exactly mean by it "stopping"? I mean, what can be the outcome of it stopping? Like, then what...?

 

I mean when you keep getting caught up in stories and identifying with your thoughts it's not gonna stop attacking. That you get a lot of ego backlash is a good sign, that is true. But it is not gonna stop if you keep identifying with your thoughts. You are gonna have to be brave and weather the storm the best you can.

I have found Shinzen's "Hear in, feel in, see in" technique to be really good for this. I use it continously throughout the day. Also whenever i catch myself wanting to elevate myself or having thoughts about how people are gonna be impressed with how spiritual I am I use the label "spiritual ego" then go back to resting as awareness. It can't be stressed enough how important it is to wash the spiritual ego away. It can take A LOT of years from your progress.

And hey, I have used weed in the past to get rest and I still struggle with the urge to smoke when it gets rough so I hear you. You just gotta hang in there and be patient.

Best of luck.

[Ninie]

@Esoteric hey thanks so much. I know you're right, at this point I don't even know what I'm suffering, it is just too intense. Dis-identification seems almost impossible, but I know it's the only way out.

What I meant in my last question is that the mind keeps asking like a child, "okay, so if this frustration is gonna stop, what happens then?". I said I want it to stop, you said it won't stop until I identify with it and I agree, but suppose I manage to dis-identify and it stops, what will the stopping be? Will it be enlightenment? Will it be going back to some false peace?

[Ninie]

@Esoteric and about weed, I've had some experience and it only intensifies the state in which I'm in, so can't risk it right now.

[Esoteric]

@Ninie If you stop identifying with the person you will simply be. But the person has to go completely. I have only had glimpses of this but I can tell you that is beyond anything your mind can imagine or make concepts about. Just don't complicate things is my tip. Just relax more and more and sink into it. Keep it simple.

[GeoLura]

9 hours ago, Ninie said:

But the more the ego attacks, the more it loses its strength, doesn't it?

Yeap, it was painful, even hellish on some points. I completely understand you taking the antidepressants and i don't know if that affects the process negatively. It's ok to take breaks from the grinding seeking, self-inquiry etc. i don't know.. maybe take this less seriously, be playful with this, love the ego, watch funny videos (: i made more progress when i stopped wanting to be enlightened. But maybe the insane tryhard daily 10hr SD sitting, super serious seeker mode was what led me to the next stage. It's hard to know for certain.
Good luck on the journey

[Leo Gura]

@Ninie The ego is not going to die quietly. Taking antidepressants will only make things worse. It's like you're pressing the gas pedal and then slamming the parking break.

What you need to do is become conscious of what this depressed feeling is about. Why it is happening? Not on a personal or psychological level but in an existential level. Why do you suffer at all? What is suffering about? What is sadness? Why purpose does it serve? Why are you creating it?

In this work you must suffer consiously, otherwise you aren't really learning anything, you are just acting out unconscious egoic patterns. You could do that for 50 years and not come out any wiser or awake.

[Ninie]

@Leo Gura This morning I felt desperate again, then I really tried to face the reasons of this suffering and ofc, I didn't find any. Deep down I know that I need this suffering to hold onto something, to still be able to identify with something, because if I let it go, what would be left? I can't identify with what I thought I was, so now I'm trying to identify with the seeking process, with the "enlightenment purpose", dark night of the soul, turning all these into concepts that I can hold onto. My mind is prone to making a mental journal to always keep track of what's going on there, labeling it as "suffering", "obsession", "depression", "dark night of the soul", etc. So if I surrender all this and surrender even the surrenderer, how could I be? It feels like it would mean giving up even the "process", giving up the work, and I don't want that. 

All in all, I can't seem to do what is referred to as "killing the Buddha".

Still, I don't know if any of this is true.

[Ninie]

@GeoLura thanks a lot. I'm really trying to put less effort in it and let it be, surrender to the "not-knowingness" and even to the fear and panic of it. Going back to the same life pattern seems impossible though, I can't un-remember this. At this point I don't even have a purpose to enlighten, I just feel stuck and looking for the way out, whatever it might be. Anyway giving less compassion and attention to what's going on inside seems to be a proper tip. 

@Esoteric yeah, I'm really trying not to believe myself. I've had glimpses as well, and even one massive awakening experience, but now it seems far away and I don't exactly know the ways to get back there.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Ninie

[Leo Gura]

@Ninie You can't think you way out of this problem. You must make a distinction between thinking this stuff and observation of actuality. Less thinking, more observation is necessary. Learn to sit and observe without emotionally reacting to anything at all. Stop judging things, stop fantasizing about the future or the past. Stop thinking about yourself. Stop thinking about your life. Just sit and observe the present moment. In the present moment there is nothing sad or bad.

Start to notice when you are conscious vs when you are reacting emotionally to anything at all.

[ajasatya]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Ninie You can't think you way out of this problem. You must make a distinction between thinking this stuff and observation of actuality. Less thinking, more observation is necessary. Learn to sit and observe without emotionally reacting to anything at all. Stop judging things, stop fantasizing about the future or the past. Stop thinking about yourself. Stop thinking about your life. Just sit and observe the present moment. In the present moment there is nothing sad or bad.

i'd ctrl+c ctrl+v these words.

[Ninie]

@Leo Gura thanks a lot. @ajasatya same.

[Privet]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The ego is not going to die quietly. Taking antidepressants will only make things worse. It's like you're pressing the gas pedal and then slamming the parking break.

Shinzen Young doesn't agree on this one, check out this video:

https://youtu.be/BQ5B70ac_9M

Also check out those two of Ken Wilber:

 

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Sometimes there are more effective things to do to accelerate awakening than brutal surrender.

[Ninie]

@Privet yeah I'm also not 100% sure that this is ego resistance or the dark night. It might be the regular psychological anxiety-depression pattern. But I've had much experience with the psychotropic medication and therapy, and I'm almost sure there is no mental health professional that I could explain all this to, or a medication that could really help the root of the problem, not just numb it. All that western traditional approach only seems to help the ego gain its strength back.

@Leo Gura "Sometimes there are more effective things to do to accelerate awakening than brutal surrender." - for example?

Edited January 13, 2019 by Ninie

[Privet]

10 minutes ago, Ninie said:

"Sometimes there are more effective things to do to accelerate awakening than brutal surrender." - for example?

Crying on someone's shoulder.

Overcoming a fear.

Satisfying a suppressed need.

Debunking limiting belief.

Aligning yourself with calling.

Resolving some conflict with a person.

Ending unfulfilling relationships.

Quitting a job/business.

Getting good friends.

There's many possible blocks on the way that suck up your energy.

It's a very tricky thing to sort it out, it's not possible to meditate yourself from all of your problems, and it's not easy to spot what makes you stuck, it's very easy to say "oh, everything is shit and that's a sign that I need to get enlightened as soon as possible". It's like becoming successful and famous out of internalized shame that resulted from neglect from your parents - overcompensation.

It seems that sometimes depression may be biochemical, sometimes psychological, sometimes as a result of a health problem, or everything at once. So we can't merely call it an ego death symptom all the time.

[Ninie]

@Privet I already did agree on the depression not 100% being the ego death symptom, but whenever I have referred to it in a psychological/biochemical/health manner, I failed. And believe me I have tried almost everything.

And I have neither interest nor energy to "find good friends" or do any of the above now. Thanks anyways.

[GeoLura]

1 minute ago, Privet said:

"oh, everything is shit and that's a sign that I need to get enlightened as soon as possible"

This. I feel like this is the motivation behind alot of seekers, it was my initial motivation when i started. Just led to more suffering. Enlightenment won't solve all your problems, don't use enlightenment as escapism. You have to do 180 and face all your bullshit.

[Privet]

21 minutes ago, Ninie said:

@Privet I already did agree on the depression not 100% being the ego death symptom, but whenever I have referred to it in a psychological/biochemical/health manner, I failed. And believe me I have tried almost everything.

And I have neither interest nor energy to "find good friends" or do any of the above now. Thanks anyways.

Yeah, I guess it might be the case that the only way is right to the root for you, although in my experience when you are depressed this lack of energy and hopelessness distorts your options and makes you believe that nothing's gonna work anymore while there's still might be something. In one interview Shinzen told a story when he recommended electroconvulsive therapy to a woman that was hopelessly depressed and tried everything, and in half a year she emailed him that this procedure gave her ego death, LOL. Another good example is Jordan Peterson and his daughter - they healed their health problems and depression with carnivore diet.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Privet