UNspirituality

[MisterMan]

**I've gone through the guidelines and think i'm covered through the act below. Plus Leo always stressed to be critical of your own inner critic. Considering everything Leo says i genuinely agree with, i think some healthy criticism is good. 

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Expressing strong opinions in a thoughtful, non-hateful, non-violent manner

I came across him and have engaged in a dialogue in the comment section on one of his video's critiquing Leo's Manking is the bullshiting animal.

I personally can't find his reasons to be very thought provoking as it seems like he completely and utterly misses the point that Leo's making. 

Almost like he's too busy looking at the finger instead of looking where Leo is pointing at with what he's saying. 

However i do find value in conflicting arguments as it's a nice break from the echo chamber i'm in and am really curious as to why he is so against Leo. Most of his points just completely miss the point. But maybe I'm missing something. 

I don't want to get banned over this but i find this very compelling. Conflicting arguments that seem to hold very little substance other than asserting that Leo is inexperienced and has it all wrong. Without actually adressing any of the finer points he makes as he literally seems to focus on Leo's finger. 

What are your thoughts on this fella?

[Leo Gura]

When someone calls himself "unspiritual", what more do you need to know?

Railing against spirituality is the new religion, LOL. It's sort of like those non-conformist kids in school who all non-conform so conformly.

Someone should start a YT channel called UnUnSpirituality

[MisterMan]

Lol, that would be pretty funny. 

 

[Shadowraix]

This guy has come up on the forums many times. I get the impression he has some axe to grind. Perhaps he started opening up and got scared shitless. Definitely seems like he's running away and justifies by claiming he used to be spiritual. As if he had a major realization and it wasn't just that he didn't want to let go of his ideas.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Shadowraix

[K VIL]

@Leo Gura lol

[MisterMan]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When someone calls himself "unspiritual", what more do you need to know?

Railing against spirituality is the new religion, LOL. It's sort of like those non-conformist kids in school who all non-conform so conformly.

Someone should start a YT channel called UnUnSpirituality

But also, at the same time. Those people could be thinking exactly the same thing about us. That we're living in our own bubble that refuse to hear "the truth". That we're close minded because ultimately we disagree with them.

and how often I project the devil in others.

Edited January 8, 2019 by MisterMan

[zambize]

2 hours ago, MisterMan said:

That we're living in our own bubble that refuse to hear "the truth". 

Can "the truth" be heard?  I agree that its important to be able to have open dialogue with other groups of people, but you can rip out the inner voice, your ideas, thoughts etc out and still have "the path" (atleast the one I'm following)  I was skeptical of Leo kind of running a cult of his own, and I think some people just blindly agree with him, but I havent seen posts getting closed that had genuine arguments and discussions going, I see healthy debate amongst the community, and he seems open about his own flaws.  You seem to be worried a bit because you put a disclaimer about being banned, but I really doubt you have to be.  Find the most compelling argument against Leo and his teachings and I'll help you try and rip him a new one

Edited January 8, 2019 by zambize

[MisterMan]

good call. Yeah i was a bit worried  As i had read in the comment section in one of that guys video's that someone got banned for posting content about this. So i was hesitant. Some of those guidelines aswell, had me wondering for a second when i first joined.

Edited January 8, 2019 by MisterMan

[Outer]

UNspirituality has been posted a couple times before.

[zambize]

9 minutes ago, MisterMan said:

good call. Yeah i was a bit worried  As i had read in the comment section in one of that guys video's that someone got banned for posting content about this. So i was hesitant. Some of those guidelines aswell, had me wondering for a second when i first joined.

Naww theres a thread basically dedicated to Leo's neck, if he keeps that shit open you're totally fine, in my experience these people come on super arrogantly and dont repond to the scrutiny their ideas get from the community in the comment section and just kind of keep throwing a fit until the thread gets locked because they never intending on having a discussion 

[Sunil Kumar]

@MisterMan lol, that's precisely what devilry is.

[MisterMan]

6 hours ago, Sunil Kumar said:

@MisterMan lol, that's precisely what devilry is.

could you elaborate?

[Shadowraix]

I skimmed his video on nonduality and Leo and it seems like he is criticizing Leo for the followers Leo constantly is trying to turn around.

Those that mentally masturbate. Concept without practice.

Denying the ego experience for oneness (funny enough not holistic)

Using all is illusion as escapeism when real and illusion are one in the same.

This is zen-devilry is it not? That's what he seems to be pointing out. But his followers seem to attribute the ideological dogmatic followers of Leo as "Leo's cult" and then shame Leo for it.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Shadowraix

[Sunil Kumar]

@MisterMan Ya, sure. Here when I say "devil", I refer to the egoic consciousness (you) - the illusion of identifying with false identity. So, because its unreal, it strives to feel real and that's precisely why the whole drama it plays. Its an amusement park for ego. It creates enemies, friends, followers, etc. You see, but who is in centre of that. It's the false identity which fuels all of these stuffs or we can say the driving force, its falsehood though. With realization of true self, those needs will escape. Or you can say that the need to feel real (of illusioned self) will disappear and so does the false identity. But that will surely take quite a bit of work and most of us are not willing to do that because its too painful to even start the path let alone be on the path for a while. All the best 

[MisterMan]

So the work is simply meditating, body scans etc. Practicing mindfulness and presence. That sort of thing?

[MisterMan]

3 hours ago, Sunil Kumar said:

@MisterMan Ya, sure. Here when I say "devil", I refer to the egoic consciousness (you) - the illusion of identifying with false identity. So, because its unreal, it strives to feel real and that's precisely why the whole drama it plays. Its an amusement park for ego. It creates enemies, friends, followers, etc. You see, but who is in centre of that. It's the false identity which fuels all of these stuffs or we can say the driving force, its falsehood though. With realization of true self, those needs will escape. Or you can say that the need to feel real (of illusioned self) will disappear and so does the false identity. But that will surely take quite a bit of work and most of us are not willing to do that because its too painful to even start the path let alone be on the path for a while. All the best 

So the work is simply meditating, body scans etc. Practicing mindfulness and presence. That sort of thing?

 

7 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

I skimmed his video on nonduality and Leo and it seems like he is criticizing Leo for the followers Leo constantly is trying to turn around.

Those that mentally masturbate. Concept without practice.

Denying the ego experience for oneness (funny enough not holistic)

Using all is illusion as escapeism when real and illusion are one in the same.

This is zen-devilry is it not? That's what he seems to be pointing out. But his followers seem to attribute the ideological dogmatic followers of Leo as "Leo's cult" and then shame Leo for it.

Yeah, that seems to be his main thing. That this is all escapism.

 

My comments got deleted below his youtube video. I was respectful and honestly wanted to hear a compelling response to my questions. I guess he doesn't want to discuss the nature of these things even though it kinda comes with the territory if you're attempting to debunk people.

Edited January 9, 2019 by MisterMan

[Emanyalpsid]

On 8-1-2019 at 8:41 AM, MisterMan said:

**I've gone through the guidelines and think i'm covered through the act below. Plus Leo always stressed to be critical of your own inner critic. Considering everything Leo says i genuinely agree with, i think some healthy criticism is good. 

I came across him and have engaged in a dialogue in the comment section on one of his video's critiquing Leo's Manking is the bullshiting animal.

I personally can't find his reasons to be very thought provoking as it seems like he completely and utterly misses the point that Leo's making. 

Almost like he's too busy looking at the finger instead of looking where Leo is pointing at with what he's saying. 

How is he missing the point? His main point is that Leo is contradicting himself almost constantly and that Leo tries to make himself inviolable by A. dismissing every other human being as bullshit, B. dismissing any critique, as that would be seen as aggressive and wrong. In that particular video, according to what Leo is saying, Leo himself should also be full of shit, Leo however doesn't see this because why would he make all those videos if he would. In another video Leo rationalized that rationality is wrong.  Basically, Leo is establishing a moral ground; he is more right than you, as he claims to have more knowledge, that is why he is the 'teacher'. Either you see through it, or you don't.

 

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However i do find value in conflicting arguments as it's a nice break from the echo chamber i'm in and am really curious as to why he is so against Leo. Most of his points just completely miss the point. But maybe I'm missing something. 

I don't want to get banned over this but i find this very compelling. Conflicting arguments that seem to hold very little substance other than asserting that Leo is inexperienced and has it all wrong. Without actually adressing any of the finer points he makes as he literally seems to focus on Leo's finger. 

What are your thoughts on this fella?

The guy is using examples out of nature to show that we are humans in nature and nothing more than that. He is saying that Leo isn't any different than other spiritual teachers; they all think that everything is consciousness and that reality is an illusion.

Basically, it always boils down to the same thing: most spiritual people believe that everything is consciousness and the universe does not exist out of matter, but that it is only an illusion or appearance in consciousness. 

The rest of humanity sees reality/the universe as existing out of matter and consciousness in it. This shows why Leo goes to all the trouble to try and show that everybody else is wrong. 

It is very easy to figure out who's right; if you are a spiritual person, let someone hit you on the head with a baseball bat and see how long you can see it as an illusion. If you lose consciousness, than consciousness is not absolute.

Leo came to his conclusion by using strong psychedelics, like a lot of spiritual people. For example, DMT is a strong hallucinogenic, which means you will see things and experience things which you normally do not experience. Imagination and sense-perception get blurred. This occurs because the chemicals in the substance bind to certain elements in the brain, mainly neurotransmitters (serotonin, melatonin, etc), and some may be unknown. According to the state of neuroscience, these neurotransmitters are necessary for processing information through the senses into consciousness. Taking psychedelics actually partly confirm this, as consciousness (perception/experience) changes through its use.

If you take a high enough dose, the neurotransmitter balance/activity can be disturbed so much that the brain can not process information correctly from the senses anymore, which makes it seem like reality falls apart. However, it is the inability from the brain to process this information into consciousness through the massive neurotransmitter inbalance, as reality is still there when the psychedelic wears off.

So, there are multiple ways to come out of this experience; A. you think consciousness is absolute and reality is an illusion, B. you see the perceived reality as relative and dependent upon your consciousness, which exists in this reality.

As you noticed I am B and Leo is A and a lot of people on this forum (probably through Leo's words) are also A.

The guy from the unspirituality channel also knows all of this this, he refers to this in other videos. I believe he makes the videos to show other people that these 'spiritual' 'teachers' are the victims of their own minds and that they get dissociated from nature and reality, as they believe to go beyond this, and it should be wise to get a second opinion before you follow someone into a psychedelic adventure which you don't know might be predestined by the words of the 'teacher'. If the 'teacher' tells you he experienced something on a strong psychedelic (A), and if you then take this strong psychedelic, you probably end up at A, because your mind is already pre-formed by the words of the 'teacher'.

The more dissociated you get from nature, the more energy it will cost you to deal with nature. It will also cost you a lot of energy to think up arguments to try to prove you are right and other people are wrong, like Leo's doing. We (the other people) don't have to do this, because we have nature to guide us. Getting tired already Leo?

Some people will try to show our connection with nature (like I am doing now and what the guy from unspirituality is also trying to do I think) and how ´spiritual teachers´ are deviating from nature in their 'elevated' consciousness being beyond nature. Until now I have experienced that the public here is deaf to my words though, the promise of 'enlightenment' is a big lure. And you have the people who already are in A to support eachother. Leo is also a charismatic guy who made a lot of helpful videos. That is the mistake a lot of people make though; they believe that if someone is right once, he must be right twice. It establishes a base of trust. Especially if you are in a bad or vulnerable place, I can imagine that you grasp anything that helps. Again, he made a lot of helpful videos. But there is a difference between self-help and spirituality though, keep that in mind. 

Now I thank the universe again for putting the energy and time in to write all of this, while no one wants to read it and I could do more pragmatic stuff....It seems to be my destiny.  

Edited January 12, 2019 by Emanyalpsid

[Shadowraix]

@Emanyalpsid Getting hit in the head with a baseball bat does not disprove that there is no fundamental source of everything. You get too caught up with linguistics and don't see the pointers.

Leo has already said he is full of shit. It's why he says to not believe him blindly. But he has also said not everyone is equally full of shit. You can't do anything with the everyone is full of shit insight unless you become good at measuring it in others and in yourself.

He just encourages people to keep validating and verifying before letting the ego take over and assume you've got it all figured out. Also the more you progress you can see the mistakes of those who haven't progressed as far. How? Because you used to be in the exact same spot.

On the topic of psychedelics seeing the nervous system as a filter and psychedelics altering that filter seems to be a good way of seeing it. What you experience is what is actually happening.  The internal and external world aren't as separate as people think 

Edited January 12, 2019 by Shadowraix

[Gabriel Antonio]

I like his teachings.

[Emanyalpsid]

16 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

@Emanyalpsid Getting hit in the head with a baseball bat does not disprove that there is no fundamental source of everything. You get too caught up with linguistics and don't see the pointers.

It doesn't, but it can prove that consciousness is not it. I see very clearly where Leo is pointing at, I don't get why you think that I get caught up with linguistics?

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Leo has already said he is full of shit. It's why he says to not believe him blindly. But he has also said not everyone is equally full of shit. You can't do anything with the everyone is full of shit insight unless you become good at measuring it in others and in yourself.

So Leo is less full of shit, the same thing in different words.

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He just encourages people to keep validating and verifying before letting the ego take over and assume you've got it all figured out. Also the more you progress you can see the mistakes of those who haven't progressed as far. How? Because you used to be in the exact same spot.

When you get the holistic view you can also see where other people are, even if you were not there yourself. Quite entertaining, but compassion always takes over.

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On the topic of psychedelics seeing the nervous system as a filter and psychedelics altering that filter seems to be a good way of seeing it. What you experience is what is actually happening.  The internal and external world aren't as separate as people think 

It is not only a filter, if there is no energy in the brain there seems to be no consciousness. Indeed a brain in overdrive is also an imagination in overdrive, hence the pretty visuals. Actually there is no seperation at all, it is only there when you think there is a seperation.

First there was your environment and then came your thoughts. This means that input from your environment created your thoughts, you didn’t create your environment through your thoughts. So the first thought is always something you experience. Cause what would you think about if you never had input from the senses? However, you can consciously elaborate on thoughts, as we have the ability to remember words we hear or read and put them in a logical order by asking yourself; ‘why you think something,’ for example. This is our thinking ability.

You use words, through thought, which already existed in your environment, as you have read or heard them somewhere. If you make new words, you use letters from an existing alphabet. If you make a new alphabet, you use your imagination to make a variation on an existing alphabet. Through our imagination we can imagine things we derive from our perception of our environment; for example, a unicorn. Your imagination can take you anywhere as images can be derived from images instead of from something out of the objective reality. 

Nature proves our conditioned state in every aspect, only through wishful thinking and imagination we try to escape from this. Once you realize this, the best way of living seems to be the one which is in balance with nature, meaning a natural way of living. That is why the buddha taught that the middle way is enlightenment. If you live out of balance with nature, nature will cause suffering. Sensual indulgence will lead to craving and self-mortification will cause pain or harm. It is not about not having thoughts. Thoughts are very helpful in a practical sense, however, if you are going to doubt your feelings, nature or reality you can end up anywhere, but it is not going to be enlightenment, as you will not be in balance with nature. It may look like enlightenment at first, but nature is going to set you straight eventually.

If you can see the relation between the effects of nature and your position towards it, depends on your knowledge or insight. A burn-out, fatigue, depression, frustration, and other mental discomforts indicate a disbalance between your position towards nature and nature itself. A lot of people do not see the relation between diseases and their nutrition, some may take decennia to develop like arthrose, seizures, heart attacks, cerebral infractions, MS, diabetes, and so on, because they fail knowledge. (source; 'Unsere nahrung unser schiksal' (English; Our nutrition, our destiny) Dr. Bruker) Can strongly recommend that book if you are interested in health and are able to read German.

The human body is a magnificent creation, it has feelings and emotions to show us what is right and wrong. Only through our will, doubt and inattention we deviate from it. Western society deviated a lot from it, but nature is setting us straight now.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Emanyalpsid