Is this a workable view on free will vs predetermination?

[Preetom]

In daily life, we have infinite possibilities to take any route any time. But we aren't actually going anywhere as it is always the formless here and now no matter which direction we take, so the term 'free will' collapses on itself. Nor our true Self ever does or becomes anything permanently or even intermittently().

It's like you can go any place in a boundless ocean, but all you are surrounded with all the time is water.

Is that a healthy attitude to develop?

Please share your personal standing on this topic of free will vs predetermination.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Preetom

[Arhattobe]

The lack of free will be a destructive idea in the hands of the ego. So will the existence of free will in some instances.

The Buddha sometimes ignored and devalued metaphysical questions for this reason. Grand metaphysical truths whatever they may be, let’s say can be boiled down to conceptual thinking, digestible for the intellect. Which they are not, but let’s say they are.

You, as an unightened person. Your ego will hijack these theories, misunderstand them, draw the wrong conclusions from them, pervert them, and self sabotage on some levels due to them. 

So what are we to do with metaphysical truths? Forget them. Do your sadhana. The 8 fold path. The 4 yogas (Karma, Bhakti, Raja, Janna). Whatever it might be. 

Focus on the right things. Do not be sucked in by irrelevant games the intellect plays with itself.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Arhattobe

[Aakash]

the duality itself creates more dualities that lead to the question, free will vs predetermination. For example, what ever happens, just happens... 

The person back rationalising with thoughts and apply the following terms 

1) good vs bad

2) neccesary vs unneccsary 

3) faith vs deterministic 

is attaching dualistic meaning to the identification which is them.. 

After realising the self in non dual terms, this is where your analogy fits 

[Aakash]

@Arhattobe i also agree here aswell; dangerous terratory to be playing with for an unenlightened person, your best off just leaving it out completely for the reasons arhattobe explained. 

[Preetom]

43 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

The lack of free will be a destructive idea in the hands of the ego. So will the existence of free will in some instances.

The Buddha sometimes ignored and devalued metaphysical questions for this reason. Grand metaphysical truths whatever they may be, let’s say can be boiled down to conceptual thinking, digestible for the intellect. Which they are not, but let’s say they are.

You, as an unightened person. Your ego will hijack these theories, misunderstand them, draw the wrong conclusions from them, pervert them, and self sabotage on some levels due to them. 

So what are we to do with metaphysical truths? Forget them. Do your sadhana. The 8 fold path. The 4 yogas (Karma, Bhakti, Raja, Janna). Whatever it might be. 

Focus on the right things. Do not be sucked in by irrelevant games the intellect plays with itself.

That's some solid advice. Thanks.

What's your personal standing on this topic before and after nirvana?

[Aakash]

@Preetom the many awakenings and stages need one word to categorise them. Nirvana should be used a whole before the person breaks an awakening but after it should be understood at a metaphysical level like leo explains to us. 

Keeping it conceptual is probably the best thing and just saying you don't know what it is, whether thats truth or not is by your own standings. This way it doesn't encapsulate/ limit what it actually is. Hence the reason i determined the definition of buddahood was to "reach the highest level attainable in ones life" the concept levels room for infinity as it should

[Arhattobe]

@Aakash ❣️@Preetom Np.

Upon awakening, and after entering non duality my lack of free will became evident to me. I didn’t spend time thinking about it, but it was seemingly a fact of life. 

That never really changed , but it became clear after I started teaching a small group of people that the way that concept is digested can be quite destructive at times.

The misunderstanding of all pointers and teachings can be destructive actually. If we come to the wrong conclusions off of them. Interpret them the wrong way or if they get hijacked by ego (& they will.)

However, out of all misunderstood “pointers”. I would have to say the most destructive can be pointers that talk about free will. They aren’t even that helpful ultimately.

Nowadays, I have a more mature and nuanced view. Upon awakening, enlightenment and further deepening. A certain clarity arises in regards to “your will”.

The layperson, however, can greatly benefit from the idea of a free will, and personal responsibility so they do everything in their power to liberate themselves. So they don’t get sloppy, apathetic, and settle for intellectual truths as “truth” and think themselves enlightened.

[Preetom]

@Arhattobe @Aakash

Also let me know how one can use his intellect from its proper place and function

[Aakash]

sorry i misinterpretted the question  but again I agree with @Arhattobe upon awakening, i stopped caring so much about it. i'll leave arhattobe to answer the rest! 

[Aakash]

Intellect for me has also been about one thing words, by understanding the fundamental duality of words. Once you understand the terms individually and how they are dualistic with frameworks regarding psychological, emotional, metaphysical, scientific, personal meaning added to the dualities. You can pretty much frame anything you want to after how you would like it! 

examples would be

thinking vs no thinking 

happy vs not happy then the larger category is happy vs sad 

so really the duality pairs are 

[ happy and not happy] vs [ sad vs not sad] 

once you understand this, you understand every word in the dictionary imo

[Aakash]

In other words, for the definition of sad to exsist and even be a word with an associated meaning , the dual pair has to exsist in its place making it relative. 

i am sad only means something only when relatively understood to i am not sad 

therefore i am happy because i am not sad 

and the chain continues to every word in the structure of language in any language and symbols aswell

[Arhattobe]

@Preetom Some teachers say that if only we could understand and use the intellect properly. Which would be as a tool to function we would be fine. 

Sadly, this view is naive and vastly misunderstands the intellect and the way it functions.

The intellect feeds off of our karmic conditionings, imprints, programming and every other piece of information it has at its disposal and as a natural consequence of all that information spews everything that it does. Clings on to everything it clings on to, and craves everything that it craves.

In short the intellect is not something we can use properly. It is not something we can control. What we can control is what sort of information, world, and stimuli we introduce to it in the future.

Through practicing a proper and holistic path. Eg the 8 fold path which I summarised nicely in a post. The 4 yogas and etc. We can feed the intellect healthier food let’s say.

If we do that consistently the intellect will eventually loosen its grip on the destructive tendencies of the ego enough for an awakening to occur. 

Then you can take it from there

[Aakash]

But again as @Arhattobe says i agree, even though intellect can be illustrated via words. The context on the mind is unfortunately not within the intellectual realm of the mind to create. There can only be one option in the now and thats the only thing you can intellectually produce, this is as he said dependant on our personal development and our struggles to educate and improve our mind. In the ways stated above 

3 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

The intellect feeds off of our karmic conditionings, imprints, programming and every other piece of information it has at its disposal

 

[Preetom]

@Arhattobe

Thanks for the insights!

But what is the tool that is used to make better decisions like feeding the intellect good conditioning? I thought intellect itself was the highest faculty that did all the reasoning and made decisions.

[Aakash]

simple .. i've thought about this for a while and everytime i end up at one answer 

high consciousness books and scripts of religious text. its only really through reading you can improve your intellect substantially 

[Aakash]

Yeah intellect can make all the faculties of greatest insights with everything you currently have at present with your unwinding of self deceptions! believe me it can make a better decision than your thinking brain. Books and educate just mitigate the risk associated with not thinking.  but yeah anything you wish to know about the self is probably contained within the akashik records in your being. if you want to know how to build a car, well then your going to have to learn physics lol for example

[Preetom]

42 minutes ago, Aakash said:

simple .. i've thought about this for a while and everytime i end up at one answer 

high consciousness books and scripts of religious text. its only really through reading you can improve your intellect substantially 

That's why satsangs came into existence huh? 

[Aakash]

ahah yeah probably thats why satsungs are for this reason, not gonna lie , i went to sadghuru inner engineering satsung. its actually weird looking at person who you know is not the person you see, inside. 

[Preetom]

2 hours ago, Aakash said:

ahah yeah probably thats why satsungs are for this reason, not gonna lie , i went to sadghuru inner engineering satsung. its actually weird looking at person who you know is not the person you see, inside. 

On 12/31/2018 at 5:18 PM, Shin said:

Yes or no ?

???

[Arhattobe]

@Preetom It’s the intellect, that due to various reasons is guided, by others and itself towards the right direction.