Typology discussions

[Aquarius]

@tsuki I think it's obvious that what I write says more about myself than about you. I had good intentions, but I had to realise that if I try to help others with such urgency, especially when not asked, then I must have either some insecurity about myself or a fresh emotional wound, and it can easily come off as unusual or shady to other people. Don't take anything I say too personally. I'm just trying to open up, in hopes I might get heard one day. I know the way I worded my ideas may have sounded annoying, but I wasn't aware of it back then. 

@Zigzag Idiot Saved the video for later. Thanks! 

I think if I'm a Jungian Innocent, then maybe that correlates to the tarot Fool? Thoughts?   

Some interesting perspectives on being a fool that are worth considering: 

“True rebels hate their own rebellion. They know by experience that it is not a cool and glamorous lifestyle; it takes a courageous fool to say things that have not been said and to do things that have not been done.” 
― Criss Jami

“A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough.” 
― Bruce Lee

“A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.” 
― Thomas Fuller

And maybe I have some Empress in me naturally because I'm a girl after all.

“To those who abuse: the sin is yours, the crime is yours, and the shame is yours. To those who protect the perpetrators: blaming the victims only masks the evil within, making you as guilty as those who abuse.” 
― Flora Jessop

[tsuki]

@Aquarius I'm sorry. How do I even respond to you after all you've wrote?
Let me try this way and I hope that you won't pick up on my mountains of suppressed anger this time:

1 hour ago, Aquarius said:

Don't take anything I say too personally.

I don't take anything you say personally. You are okay. Don't worry.
I was making fun of myself in my last post. This human thing called "talking" is tricky. I usually fail at it.
Have a good day.

Edited February 5, 2019 by tsuki

[Aquarius]

@tsuki It's not that we fail at it, it's just the written medium is tricky. If anything, it's the written medium at fault, not the people behind the screen typing the words. I don't see it as a failure, but rather, an opportunity to grow maybe. At least for me. You view it as you want it. I'm pretty sure if we talked face to face the misunderstanding could've been avoided. 

We're very much alike it seems. Don't beat yourself up over a misunderstanding.  We are fine. We cool. No resentments. 

Have a good day you too!

edit: don't say sorry, you've done no harm.  

Edited February 5, 2019 by Aquarius

[Aquarius]

Checked out the Enneagram. I'm an Intimate nine subtype.  

"The Enneagram portrays our biggest problem in life and our greatest gift, and remarkably they are the same."

 

"With the intimate Nine subtype, the general tendency of style Nine to merge with the plans and agendae of others becomes focused on a partner. The intimate Nine will tend to almost "live through" the romantic partner or close friend or parent/child. Within style Nine the danger is not getting what they want because they prefer to do what others want in order to get along. When this energy is focused on the partner, the relationship becomes all important and the Nine can lose her own volition and direction."

(Source: http://www.enneagramcentral.com/index.html ) 

[tsuki]

56 minutes ago, Aquarius said:

If anything, it's the written medium at fault, not the people behind the screen typing the words.

@Aquarius I refuse to blame. You, me, the medium.

I just love Enneagram. It's so uncannily accurate.
Truth always feels like a slap in the face and this system just never fails to deliver.

[Zigzag Idiot]

6 hours ago, Aquarius said:

I think if I'm a Jungian Innocent, then maybe that correlates to the tarot Fool? Thoughts?   

Maybe so,,, I haven't studied much about the idea of the Jungian innocent. 

I think the fool is a part of all of us which I correlate with the Joker and also the ordinary Idiot in the Science of Idiotism.

"This then is the meaning of Ascent and Descent of the Scale of Idiotism. Wherever one finds oneself, one must first 'descend consciously' to the Ordinary Idiot, that is the Idiot with no distinguishing features, no personality, no special powers or properties. Mr. Gurdjieff's understanding of the Ordinary Idiot could not be better exemplified than when he said that all very young children are Ordinary Idiots. Obviously the Gospel saying "Except ye become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven" leaps into one's mind."

from: https://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/quotes/science-of-idiotism.htm

[Aquarius]

4 hours ago, tsuki said:

@Aquarius I refuse to blame. You, me, the medium.

I just love Enneagram. It's so uncannily accurate.
Truth always feels like a slap in the face and this system just never fails to deliver.

Yes, seems like something that's worth studying.

9 minutes ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

"This then is the meaning of Ascent and Descent of the Scale of Idiotism. Wherever one finds oneself, one must first 'descend consciously' to the Ordinary Idiot, that is the Idiot with no distinguishing features, no personality, no special powers or properties. Mr. Gurdjieff's understanding of the Ordinary Idiot could not be better exemplified than when he said that all very young children are Ordinary Idiots. Obviously the Gospel saying "Except ye become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven" leaps into one's mind."

from: https://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/quotes/science-of-idiotism.htm

Beautiful quote. Thanks for the link, saved for later. 

[Zigzag Idiot]

Essence/Body types

 

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

We can't change the makeup of our endocrine system. Below the book image is an excerpt from near the end in which I think she describes why knowing about this part of ourselves can greatly assist integration and self acceptance so far as our essence traits goes. 

When we are able to recognize types and predict the characteristic reactions, we find that this information is liberating, both as it applies to ourselves and as it helps us to understand others. Once we know that virtually all limitations, weakness and shortcomings are not things for which we can be blamed, most of us feel the lifting of guilt that we have carried for most of our lives. If we are Lunars we cannot be outgoing and emotionally demonstrative, no matter how much others urge us to be and how much we may want to please them. If we are Saturns we cannot stop trying to control others--- always for their own good--- no matter how strenuously they object. If we are Venusians we cannot be aggressively ambitious no matter how much our mothers want us to be and how much we may love our mothers. If we are an emotionally centered mercurial and find it impossible to engage in repetitive tasks day after day, word processing in an isolated cubicle, or putting shingles on roofs, then we should begin to understand how hard it is for a moving centered Martial to experience his own emotions, much less express them effectively. ,,,,,

By the way, that's me- the moving centered martial. So was Gurdjieff. Maybe that's why I relate to him so much.

 

Taken together, it seems all the different typologies gives a fractal description/picture of our 'Stardust'. Both our physical and energetic stardust. There is a lot of variety in stardust if the universe is infinite.

Physical - Endocrine/body type

Energetic- Astrological type

Could the Painbody be called the Timebody?

Might the physical body be called the spacebody?   I like to use the term Automaton as some in the Work do, in reference to the physical body. It seems to help cultivate non attachment or disidentification to the parts of my nature that is mechanical.

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

Three good Enneagram books I recommend.

                   

 

The Enneagram of Passions and Virtues: Finding the Way Home Introduction

This book is not simply about the enneagram. It is about inner transformation. It is about understanding some of the major characteristics of our consciousness in the state of personality or ego—that of believing and taking ourselves to be the person who is the product of our personal history. It is also about the changes our inner atmosphere undergoes as we become free of that identification. And finally, it is about skillful means, as the Buddhists would say: how to orient ourselves so that this transformation has the possibility of becoming a reality.

Obviously, these aims imply that most of us are living within inner confines of which we are unaware, and that there is much more to us and to our potential experience of reality than we experience within the perimeters of ego. It also implies that it is possible to expand our consciousness beyond these constraints. This has been the endeavor of spiritual seekers throughout the ages, based on an inner intuition, or perhaps direct experience in extraordinary moments of deeper dimensions beyond those of ordinary consciousness. ,,,,,,,,

 

 

Sandra Maitri's, "The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram: Nine Faces of the Soul"

  This review appeared in the 2003 July-August issue of New Dawn Magazine:

___________________________________

While the ideas inspiring the modern Enneagram concept can be traced at least as far back as classical Greek philosophy, the majority of material currently being taught about it, including the psychology of the nine Enneagram types, is the work of contemporary authors.

In this sense, the Enneagram is not an established model, but a work-in-progress. Many fundamental ideas are shared by Enneagram formulators, but there are also significant differences and diverse theories about the types themselves, and the underlying philosophical base.

A great deal of confusion even exists concerning the contributions made by different authors and teachers. The Enneagram was originally disseminated in the 1970s by enthusiasts passing around photocopied notes from Oscar Ichazo’s Arica School and Jesuit sources. These notes were not attributed to anyone, which made it extremely difficult to know who had authored them.

As books were published, some clarity began to emerge, but even so, many assumed everything about the Enneagram belonged to an ancient “oral tradition” from the Sufis and was therefore in the public domain. For this reason, it is almost mandatory for a newcomer to read the work of students who received the first model of the teaching.

The father of the modern Enneagram is Oscar Ichazo whose contributions were central to the development of the modern system. Ichazo linked the nine divine qualities or aspects found in Neoplatonism, Kabbalah, and mystical Christianity, to the Enneagram symbol. Most modern authors build their work on this model.

Following this work was Claudio Naranjo, a student of Fritz Perls, founder of Gestalt therapy. Naranjo learned the Enneagram from Ichazo during his stay in Chile in 1970. He returned that year and began teaching the basic concepts to a small group in California.

Naranjo combined his background in psychiatry with Ichazo’s teaching, and further developed the alignment between the nine types and modern clinical psychological categories, including the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) personality disorders, various defense mechanisms, and other personality theories. He developed additional ideas, and further applications for the 27 combinations of Enneagram types and Instincts.

With the exception of A.H. Almaas and Sandra Maitri, no major Enneagram teacher or author has ever been a student of either Ichazo or Naranjo. More often than not, teachers and writers are part of the obscure and virtually untraceable line stemming from self styled teachers with their own methods and aims. While some of these may be quite progressive, the majority do not understand the concepts completely and interpret the Enneagram without knowledge of its essential properties.

Sandra Maitri, author of The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram, is known as one of the Ridhwan School’s principal teachers who, with Almaas, taught the Enneagram system by Claudio Naranjo over twenty-five years ago. Her vast experience and direct knowledge and transmission of the initial concepts make her a formidable source for students interested in a different application of technique.

The Enneagram has gained popularity in recent years as a system of understanding ourselves and others in which nine basic personality types – each having specific cognitive, affective, and behavioural characteristics – can be discerned. Nearly every modern Enneagram-related work treats the system only as a typology of personality, and while an extremely valuable psychological tool, its deeper purpose is largely unexplored. This is precisely where Maitri’s book is set apart.

Rather than simply presenting the Enneagram as a definitive psychological typology, she seeks to illustrate the spiritual applications, and convey the original spirit and purpose of this body of knowledge as a tool for spiritual development.

The Enneagram’s true function, Maitri explains, is to “point the way to who we are beyond the level of personality, a dimension of ourselves that is infinitely more profound, more interesting, and more rewarding.” Maitri shows how the Enneagram charts the disconnection from our inner depths, how each personality type develops as a part of this estrangement, and how traversing the inner territory particular to our type can bring fulfillment and meaning to our lives by bringing this deeper dimension to consciousness.

She explores the nine types, the subtypes, the wings, and the inner movement of the Enneagram, all in the context of spiritual development. She includes a clear explanation of the concepts and methods for personal application, including a chapter on identifying your personal Enneagram type and the implications for your own development.

For the reader interested in the development of the soul through an intimate knowledge of oneself, The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram is perfect. While so many spiritual models focus on the external factors, this is one of the effective few that find the path to spiritual development within the mind and personality of the individual.

– Robert Buratti

[tsuki]

I read "From Fixation to Freedom the Enneagram of Liberation" by Eli Jaxon-Bear.
It's a good tool to raise your level of consciousness.

[Zigzag Idiot]

21 minutes ago, tsuki said:

I read "From Fixation to Freedom the Enneagram of Liberation" by Eli Jaxon-Bear.
It's a good tool to raise your level of consciousness.

I haven't read that one but I bet it is good.

I like his wife's book - A Diamond in your Pocket - Gaganji 

[tsuki]

I've been reading Meditations on Tarot, and I stumbled across an important distinction.
Hermeticism deals with multiplicity of the world by using its underlying unity in the unknown.
This multiplicity, knowledge, is two-dimensional. One dimension is time (past-now-future), the other is space (below-here-above).

The author of the book makes a distinction between these two dimensions and classifies spiritual technology (that, which makes one arrive at unity) into two categories: mythology and typology. Mythology are universals that show the multiplicity relating to time as inherently unified, while typology shows the apparent multiplicity of 'things' as unified between levels of abstraction (subtlety).

The example of a Mythology would be Hero's journey, while an example of Typology would be Enneagram of personality, MBTI, or endocrinal type.

I'm still quite baffled by the Enneagram itself, as it seems to be a map of maps, something that can be used to express both typologies and mythologies.

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

@tsuki I'm so glad you're reading Meditations on the Tarot. 

With your focus and intellect, whatever you share will most likely be a benefit for a particular few if not at times for all.

[tsuki]

@Zigzag Idiot Thank you! ❤️