Stage Red Integration (Spiral Dynamics)

[Dan Arnautu]

Meet Danny. He spent almost his whole life in a maximum security prison, a pure Red, dog eat dog environment.

If you pay close attention to his body language and the context of his story, you can see that he is not a cold blooded psychopath. 

He just did everything he could to adapt to the environment he was put in, in order to survive. Not being aggressive was not an option in that prison.

You shank when other prisoners attack you, otherwise you're seen as weak, prison clans make you their slave, suck everything you have and then discard you like an orange peel.

It can clearly be seen that he DID NOT want to participate in criminal behavior or any kind of violent behavior in that prison. You can also see it in his eyes that he has no motive to lie about it. Fact is, the  only alternative to that was death. There are very few days without a lockdown in that prison. You could count them on one hand. There is always a life or death situation.

He actually cried for the prisoners that he knew should be in a lower security prison. The ones that were soft and just got themselves in a bad situation. He knew they would get killed and there was nothing he could do about it.

I see a proper integration of stage red as 

• Cultivating your ability to be dangerous when needed.
• Getting very good at overcoming real life or death situations when necessary.
• Being able to bypass your high ideals temporarily, adapt to a red environment and be ferocious when the alternative is death. 

Let me give you a practical example of someone who has and someone who has not integrated stage red properly:

Joe Rogan versus a classical hippie. Who do you think would survive in a prison (red environment)?

Joe Rogan has the same high ideals of 

• Love, heart, soul, empathy, intimacy, kindness
• Compassion, mercy, leniency
• Humanism, liberalism, social progress
• Spirituality 
• Ecology
• Cooperation over competition
• Creativity, beauty, art
• Warm interaction
• Pacifism, peace

Yet, unlike the hippie, he also cultivated the beast inside of him. With a black belt in martial arts, healthy assertiveness and a strong frame, he knows how to bring the beast out when needed. He knows he doesn't need to do that 99% of the time, but if he has to, he knows he can. That's why I think he integrates it in a healthy way.

This is the difference I think between a person that is at stage green/yellow or above who has integrated red and someone who has not.

I suggest you watch the whole series following Danny's story. He gives lots of juicy insights on how to survive a red environment if you find yourself in one.

I think his story is especially valuable because he is not a cold blooded psychopath but feels more like what you and I would have been in a similar set of circumstances.

You probably won't need to shank people in the future for your safety like Danny did. What you probably will need to do though is to see the underlying mindset behind that type of behavior so you can adapt it to the situation at hand if it is ever needed.

Do you agree? Leave your thoughts below.

[CreamCat]

Yes, I will grow muscles and learn some self defense. I will also learn to become assertive (on the internet) when I need to.

[Hellspeed]

Maybe Red is second most important after Green in SD. Because Green and Red tend to create a balance inside. 

[Dan Arnautu]

 

22 minutes ago, Hellspeed said:

Maybe Red is second most important after Green in SD. Because Green and Red tend to create a balance inside. 

Yeah, they tend to feel somewhat like polar opposites.

[billiesimon]

I didn't see this thread.

Well, I have a huge deficit in stage red, since I've never experienced it.

Now I'm starting pickup and going out in a lot of unknown places and confronting very deep fears which feel very very primal to me (confronting unknown women as an outsider and being brave).

Do you think that practising pickup as a shy young man is going to reintegrate the warlord inside me? Or is it really necessary to practice some fighting sport?

Pickup seems very hardcore to me. Not orange at all.

[Genghis Khan]

@billiesimon I think Martial Arts is a necessity for integrating Red.

You should be confident in your ability to fight and kill anyone who tries to take advantage of you or get in the way of what you want.

As for the women, there are a few tricks that work for overcoming fear. When I was younger, what worked for me was belligerently flirting with women in an overtly sexual and abrasive fashion. Without any real intention of actually picking anyone up. Just lose all inhibition, if you think a woman is attractive, tell her exactly what you think. Don't try to be smooth or cool. Some women even respond well to it, which is better than none. 

[billiesimon]

37 minutes ago, Genghis Khan said:

@billiesimon I think Martial Arts is a necessity for integrating Red.

You should be confident in your ability to fight and kill anyone who tries to take advantage of you or get in the way of what you want.

As for the women, there are a few tricks that work for overcoming fear. When I was younger, what worked for me was belligerently flirting with women in an overtly sexual and abrasive fashion. Without any real intention of actually picking anyone up. Just lose all inhibition, if you think a woman is attractive, tell her exactly what you think. Don't try to be smooth or cool. Some women even respond well to it, which is better than none. 

I want to inform myself better on martial arts, because I need to integrate these lessons.

But why isn't cold approach red integration? It's confronting a very primal fear of unknown and of uknown tribes.

For what I can see cold approach has a lot of red lessons in it. Especially conquering fears and boyhood.

[XYZ]

The reason I fear direct aggressive approach/flirting with women has nothing to do with how they would react, but how other men will react if they even think I am bothering her. Doesn't make any sense to me why some guys are afraid of talking to women, the worst she'd probably do is tell you to go away. But fear of the system is a genuine fear that suppresses my stage red, in this example and many others. If I allowed myself to express my warrior/beast side there would be male friends, white knights, security guards and police who would have a problem with it and physically harm me if they felt I was a threat to women they're protective over.

The sexually aggressive direct approaches I've seen are too risky, like imagine if I was talking to a woman and told her "you make my cock hard and my heart melt." Feel free to use that line at your own risk if you have the balls, cause I sure don't. If my body language, facial expression and intonation isn't perfect, she doesn't find me physically attractive, or anyone else nearby thinks it's creepy, I'm a sexual harasser. Yet at the same time, without this fear, I can see how being that direct, raw unabashedly expressing your true nature could be the sexiest thing ever to a woman, though it's a total gamble few would be willing to take in the current year. This stage red masculinity is latent in most men with high testosterone I'd assume, but as with many other aspects of stage red, repressed by society.

[billiesimon]

26 minutes ago, XYZ said:

The reason I fear direct aggressive approach/flirting with women has nothing to do with how they would react, but how other men will react if they even think I am bothering her. Doesn't make any sense to me why some guys are afraid of talking to women, the worst she'd probably do is tell you to go away. But fear of the system is a genuine fear that suppresses my stage red, in this example and many others. If I allowed myself to express my warrior/beast side there would be male friends, white knights, security guards and police who would have a problem with it and physically harm me if they felt I was a threat to women they're protective over.

The sexually aggressive direct approaches I've seen are too risky, like imagine if I was talking to a woman and told her "you make my cock hard and my heart melt." Feel free to use that line at your own risk if you have the balls, cause I sure don't. If my body language, facial expression and intonation isn't perfect, she doesn't find me physically attractive, or anyone else nearby thinks it's creepy, I'm a sexual harasser. Yet at the same time, without this fear, I can see how being that direct, raw unabashedly expressing your true nature could be the sexiest thing ever to a woman, though it's a total gamble few would be willing to take in the current year. This stage red masculinity is latent in most men with high testosterone I'd assume, but as with many other aspects of stage red, repressed by society.

I'm not talking about stage red pickup. 
In fact I am learning pickup as the stage orange/green I'm actually in now. Social calibration and honesty, empathy.

What I was talking about was facing your social fears of approaching (in an honest and peaceful/sweet manner) a woman in an unknown avenue.

If you go out and approach girls at a loud club, a big chaotic bar, or a party where you know nobody... you are going to feel a lot of fear and distress, because the enviroment feels like another tribe that might be against you. In your mind.

This is what I mean by integrating the stage red courage and willpower to conquer a new enviroment (peacefully with social skills).

The deep fear you feel in these cases are too primitive to be resolved with stage orange mentality, that's what I meant.

[Genghis Khan]

8 hours ago, billiesimon said:

I want to inform myself better on martial arts, because I need to integrate these lessons.

But why isn't cold approach red integration? It's confronting a very primal fear of unknown and of uknown tribes.

For what I can see cold approach has a lot of red lessons in it. Especially conquering fears and boyhood.

Cold approaching women happens at pretty much every stage above purple I imagine. I would imagine that Stage Red has a more misogynistic view towards women. Stage Red would impress women through fierce, primal confidence derived from the ability to commit acts of violence and a lack of fear.

Imagine there's an attractive woman that you have your eye on, and she's talking to some weak twat of a "man". You are the stronger man, so you push that douchebag out of the way and take what you want. If he has a problem, knock his teeth in.

Atleast that's how I imagine a Red mindset.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Genghis Khan

[Genghis Khan]

1 hour ago, XYZ said:

The reason I fear direct aggressive approach/flirting with women has nothing to do with how they would react, but how other men will react if they even think I am bothering her. Doesn't make any sense to me why some guys are afraid of talking to women, the worst she'd probably do is tell you to go away. But fear of the system is a genuine fear that suppresses my stage red, in this example and many others. If I allowed myself to express my warrior/beast side there would be male friends, white knights, security guards and police who would have a problem with it and physically harm me if they felt I was a threat to women they're protective over.

The sexually aggressive direct approaches I've seen are too risky, like imagine if I was talking to a woman and told her "you make my cock hard and my heart melt." Feel free to use that line at your own risk if you have the balls, cause I sure don't. If my body language, facial expression and intonation isn't perfect, she doesn't find me physically attractive, or anyone else nearby thinks it's creepy, I'm a sexual harasser. Yet at the same time, without this fear, I can see how being that direct, raw unabashedly expressing your true nature could be the sexiest thing ever to a woman, though it's a total gamble few would be willing to take in the current year. This stage red masculinity is latent in most men with high testosterone I'd assume, but as with many other aspects of stage red, repressed by society.

I've seen guys have a lot of success by just being straightfoward and sexual. You just gotta take into consideration what environment you're in. I've even seen it work back in high school, and has even worked for me a few times. Concerts too. At heavy metal concerts I used to just grab girls and makeout with them. I actually got numbers doing that.

That was in my teens though. I don't think I would try that now unless I know I'm in the right environment for it.

The whole point of stage Red is that you shouldn't care what other people think. Fuck those other people. Go with your instincts. Focus on what YOU want.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Genghis Khan

[Wyze]

On 12/29/2018 at 3:02 AM, Hellspeed said:

Maybe Red is second most important after Green in SD. Because Green and Red tend to create a balance inside. 

I don't think Green is more important than any of the SD colours, because all of the colours contribute something to you as a person. I think Red is the fuel that helps Green protect its boundaries.

[XYZ]

7 hours ago, billiesimon said:

stage red courage and willpower to conquer a new enviroment

(peacefully with social skills).

To me there feels like a huge disconnect between the 2: Forcing yourself to deal with something, just facing your fears and powering through them, versus using social skills and caring about how other people receive you. Stage Red is egocentric- jumping right in, not giving a fuck, doing what you want, saying it like it is. It doesn't want to play by the rules, if it even understands the rules. A lot of my personality is stuck at stage red, and this makes it very frustrating & tedious to deal with things like social networking and business.

It's so ambiguous, so complex and so many ways to screw it up, I just wanna cut to the chase, make new friends and deepen existing friendships, offer value in exchange for money/resources, and be intimate with women I desire. In a primitive environment these things would come naturally as a result of everyone embodying the stage red survival mentality and needing to co-operate with one another. In the current civilized society of the Western world, it's rarely as simple as "I'm human, you're human, let's be friends!,' "I like you, I like you too, let's cuddle!,' 'I'll do X, Y, Z for you and you give me this much money and food.'

Back to the main topic: I see Stage Red as valuable for the drive to just do what needs to be done for immediate survival without hesitation, when things don't go as planned, you don't have time for moral considerations, and you're pushed up against the limits of your surroundings. In more stable environments it can also be a beautiful simplicity of being, direct inter-dependence, no bullshit living, an absence of hierarchy and ideology. Cognizant of how violent life can be, ready to fight if necessary, but valuing interim peace among your tribe of fellow humans.

7 hours ago, Genghis Khan said:

The whole point of stage Red is that you shouldn't care what other people think. Fuck those other people. Go with your instincts. Focus on what YOU want.

If this seems to be my general attitude in life though, how might I grow beyond it? To integrate blue, which appears to be my weakest link in the spiral. 

Yes, direct approaches and just making a move are often too risky in the adult world, only exception when the woman crosses the line first by saying or doing something risque and then you sense it's okay to be more overtly sexual with her.

I was too shy, low self-esteem & self conscious to be direct with girls in school. Then again, today it's probably just as bad. If in 2002 I was talking to a 13 year old girl and she gave me the 'doggy dinner bowl look' I could have kissed her, and if I misread the signal would probably just get slapped. If a teenage boy did that today he might get expelled, arrested and sued.

[Privet]

The only sign of the lack of integration of some stage of the spiral is shadow. In case of stage red it's power-hungry narcissist subpersonality.

What you described is the ability to succeed in red environment rather than integration of stage red.

I guess a proper way of integration of stage red is becoming aware of repressed unsatisfied need for power and the narcissistic shell that was built on top by your ego to overcompensate this unsatisfied need.

Being able to succeed to some degree in stage red is just a half of the job. Integration means including and transcending, not just including. You have to learn when you are dangerous and you don't need to be as well as when you do.

We should distinguish between learning how to be dangerous from when to be dangerous. Learning how to be dangerous is just a power skill, learning when to be dangerous is about shadow work and integration.

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Privet

[ivory]

@Privet Nice post.

[Joseph Maynor]

Highly recommended to watch.  This interview changed my life I think.  It had a big impact on me.

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Privet]

@ivory Thanks.

[Dan Arnautu]

@Joseph Maynor Thanks. 

[bonesurfer]

Elon Musk, Ken Wilber, Einstein, Eben Pagan.... None of these men would thrive in a prison environment.

[CreamCat]

4 hours ago, bonesurfer said:

None of these men would thrive in a prison environment.

How exactly do you thrive in a prison?