Limits of thinking and transcending tier 1 stages

[ivory]

@Elysian Well said.

[Mu_]

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Edited December 29, 2018 by Mu_

[Mu_]

19 hours ago, ivory said:

I get what you're saying but I disagree with this. Each stage comes with its own level of suffering and dissatisfaction. When suffering increases to the point that you can no longer ignore it, its time to reassess your values. But, because you've been stuck in the same way of thinking for so long it's difficult to know what the next step is. That's where the map REALLY starts to have value. It can save you a lot of time in figuring out how to step out of suffering and move into a more sustainable way of being.

 

These things aren't accessible at all stages on the spiral. And I would not say life is about embracing suffering, it's about realizing how you can minimize suffering and stepping out of it. To draw from Buddhism, that's what the eight-fold path is all about.

Only so much can be effectively said to someone over the internet in a paragraph.  Ya lifes more complex than this, but writing a million page essay to get all angles isn't always helpful.  bejapuskas seemed to resonate and get something usefull out of the response and thats hopefully growth.  But a lot of what you said is also useful for the right person at that particular moment shared, possibly. 

More specifically to your comment on suffering, I agree with much of what you said, and my use of embracing was more about to describe not avoiding, relate to it in a way that is healthy instead of its a problem or to be a victim to it.  A potential trap within what you shared though is an idea that you can step out of suffering, sure minimize, but step out completely (maybe maybe maybe, but I dont know if its a healthy goal), but this can lead to not being satisfied if you still have shreds/slivers/some suffering still that you can't figure out/shake/transcend.  To accept suffering is oddly to suffer less, but I'm sure you've seen this.

Cheers, and happy holidays.

[ivory]

9 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

To accept suffering is oddly to suffer less, but I'm sure you've seen this.

I would agree with that. Cheers.

[bejapuskas]

I think I understood what you all meant correctly, no need to explain yourselves  

[ValiantSalvatore]

@bejapuskas On the website from Ken Wilber or his organization is a video explaining the core concepts of Integral Thinking or second tier, also Leo's video is brilliant on this in a very very nuanced way.

On the website there are three concepts to integral thinking:

Non-exclusivity: -> Everyone is right

Enactment: -> If you want to know this do that

Enfoldment: -> Some are more right than others

This is what I remembered from the video but, I've been listening to this stuff for some years, IMO. Keeping these three aspects in mind and meditation can help tremendously. I also journal, so I can relate. One drive a stage yellow person has is doing things for itself rather than for status or being part of a group etc. For me when I journal it's often that I keep falling back to some rationality and build it into something that sounds systemic or is on a "connecting the dots" big picture level, so moving from strategic writing to self-expression to integration. I mostly write about personal stuff. I don't describe landscapes or events with human beings often. 

In case you want to watch the dialog, it is called Integral Thinking on their website.

[bejapuskas]

@ValiantSalvatore Thanks, I will definitely check that out.