How can you trust your mind?

[SOUL]

14 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Could there be a duality here?

A duality is perceived in the feeling of separation from the sense of self which is the attached awareness of our consciousness in the manifest. Our unattached awareness of our consciousness is unified with the unmanifest awareness of the absolute and feels connected so there is a perception of unity.

The question is do we bring attention to and endorse the attached sense of separated self or do we abide in the unattached sense of the unified being? That will answer whether there is a perception of separation/duality or a perception of one/unity.

5 hours ago, ground said:

Belief is imputation of truth. Therefore what you called belief isn't belief on my side. However you can believe that it is and I can't do anything to make you drop that belief.
If merely uttering words or writing words were the expression of belief then intentionally telling a lie would be impossible.

If one holds beliefs then upon liberation all beliefs have vanished.

 

Inspect my words, there isn't any truth in them. All of my words originate depending on conditions.

 

The point is if one cannot identify the mental factor in one's mind stream that causes or (better) is belief one will never understand what I am talking about. If on the other side one can identify this factor in one's mind stream one has necessarily directly perceived emptiness.

I experience liberation and there are still beliefs. I believe that these words I type have meaning that can be communicated, I believe that when I hit 'submit reply' these words will post on the forum. Although, I also believe that the meaning and posting of words have no influence and effect on my experience of liberation.

Liberation is the cessation of self suffering not the cessation of belief. Belief is merely a mechanism the mind uses to help us successfully navigate in the manifest existence. Belief can cause self suffering when we attach our awareness to those beliefs so create self identity on those beliefs.

If we abide in unattached awareness of being present any belief held has no self identity creating or sustaining effect in our experience so the cessation of self suffering can be realized in liberation. Belief in that experience is nothing more than just a psychological feature that helps keep the organism alive and not the cause of self suffering.

You have beliefs as well since you type out words trusting they have meaning that can be communicated and hit 'submit reply' trusting they will post on the forum. If Leo paid the bills they will.....we believe.

Edited December 29, 2018 by SOUL

[Anton Rogachevski]

@SOUL  

So duality is a choice made at the second of labeling yet unmanifested awareness. This makes it all very easy! Just don't label if you don't want separation to occur.

And so everything within awareness is awareness, but one can label and divide it to manifest objects.

Are you a wizard?

What a bliss,
Deep bow to you, old friend.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[SOUL]

@Anton Rogachevski

Well, even the words 'unmanifest awareness' are just labels we use to communicate meaning to another and our mind uses those labels for conceptualization so labeling itself isn't what causes the feeling of separation. When we attach our awareness of being to a self identity in something like labels, beliefs, concepts and on and on that sense of separation blossoms in our consciousness because it realizes the division between what we are and we are not in the mind through the sense of self identity.

Even if someone identifies as the one who severs attachment, dissolves ego, dis-identifies, becomes no-self, resists something or actively does something to attain it creates a feeling of separation as duality. Abiding in unattached awareness of being is such a subtle non-activity it confounds the mind because it has nothing to cling to in self identity. So, in effect the feeling of separation is the source of self suffering and abiding in the unity of unattached awareness of being is liberating to our conscious experience.

Edited December 29, 2018 by SOUL

[ground]

15 hours ago, SOUL said:

I experience liberation and there are still beliefs. I believe that these words I type have meaning that can be communicated, I believe that when I hit 'submit reply' these words will post on the forum. Although, I also believe that the meaning and posting of words have no influence and effect on my experience of liberation.

Liberation is the cessation of self suffering not the cessation of belief. Belief is merely a mechanism the mind uses to help us successfully navigate in the manifest existence. Belief can cause self suffering when we attach our awareness to those beliefs so create self identity on those beliefs.

If we abide in unattached awareness of being present any belief held has no self identity creating or sustaining effect in our experience so the cessation of self suffering can be realized in liberation. Belief in that experience is nothing more than just a psychological feature that helps keep the organism alive and not the cause of self suffering.

You have beliefs as well since you type out words trusting they have meaning that can be communicated and hit 'submit reply' trusting they will post on the forum. If Leo paid the bills they will.....we believe.

As I said: you can believe this or you can believe that. I can't do anything about your beliefs. I can't make you drop your beliefs to liberate you.

My words are empty of meaning. your mind synthesizes meaning upon your eyes seeing my word. i do not know the meaning your mind sythesizes. When I type words this is my enjoyment. It is like enjoying dancing. The dance is enjoyed regardless of whether someone is watching or not. The dance doesn't have any meaning.

[SOUL]

59 minutes ago, ground said:

As I said: you can believe this or you can believe that. I can't do anything about your beliefs. I can't make you drop your beliefs to liberate you.

My words are empty of meaning. your mind synthesizes meaning upon your eyes seeing my word. i do not know the meaning your mind sythesizes. When I type words this is my enjoyment. It is like enjoying dancing. The dance is enjoyed regardless of whether someone is watching or not. The dance doesn't have any meaning.

 You sure do dance, you dance around with words and your words have no meaning because they are empty and have no truth, you say it yourself and you believe it.

Liberation doesn't require dropping beliefs, that is just your belief and is a limitation for you, not anyone else.  Liberation is the cessation of self suffering and if you experience liberation this is what you'd be saying to me.

Of course you're not saying this and it is revealing because I can see right through your dances with words.

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by SOUL

[ground]

10 minutes ago, SOUL said:

I can see right through your dances with words.

And all you see is your beliefs.

[ivankiss]

Leaning towards @SOUL

But I feel you too @ground

Does me believing anything about these posts change anything? 

It does. My experience.

Could it be...That the dance has no meaning...

Because you believe there is no meaning?

Nevertheless, I admire it.

You all show some dope dance moves here.

Why are you dancing in the first place?

Edited December 30, 2018 by ivankiss

[ground]

13 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Does me believing anything about these posts change anything? 

It does. My experience.

That illustrates nicely how experience and conceptuality are related. If one imputes the tiniest bit of truth to conceptuality one will never let go of beliefs and 'lean towards' belief.

 

13 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Could it be...That the dance has no meaning...

Because you believe there is no meaning?

It is thus: you think the key you are searching may be on the table in the adjacent room. you go into that room but on the table there is no key.

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by ground

[ivankiss]

@ground Why do you assume that one is somehow unable to have a belief and simultaniously see through it?

I look at my hand and I believe it's a hand.

But that does not mean I don't recognize the belief itself.

I am to impose. See through it, but still, impose.

Create, move and rearrange.

If there is no real meaning I might as well create my own.

Do not worry. I will not get 'lost' in my own dance. If I get bored with it and choose to stop, I might as well declare it's all been an illusion.

Love

[Anton Rogachevski]

6 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

simultaniously

There's the sneaky thought!

Edited December 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[ivankiss]

2 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

There's the sneaky thought!

And it's a part of my beautiful creation 

Don't blame the ego. It does not exist.

It is a part of this imaginary dance 

[Anton Rogachevski]

11 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

It does not exist.

Where is the zen master when he's needed? If it really didn't exist, this forum would be futile my dear friend.

 

------

@ivankiss said: "My"

------

The sneakiness occurs when thought are glued together.

For example:

"I did this" =

Thought+Thought+Thought = "action"

In fact only once you apply logic you can declare reality.

While in fact they are noises within a void.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[ivankiss]

5 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Where is the zen master when he's needed? If it really didn't exist, this forum would be futile my dear friend.

In this humbling moment,

I'd say the ego is an idea. A project.

It is real just as much as anything else isn't.

For me, there is no such thing as "real" or "unreal". 

If it seems to be, it is. As long as it seems so.

No difference in anything really, that is why I dance and create. 

I am getting drunk in my own moves. 

Has nothing to do with ego. And has everything to do with it.

I see mirrors. I see in them what fits.

My ideas and projects are on a cosmic scale.

I want to see all limits and walk right through them. I might as well save the world from slavery 

Notice how egoic that sounds. 

But... Where is this... Ego? 

Is it painted on these words? Or are these... just random simbols? 

 

 

 

 

[Anton Rogachevski]

25 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

In this humbling moment,

I'd say the ego is an idea. A project.

It is real just as much as anything else isn't.

For me, there is no such thing as "real" or "unreal". 

If it seems to be, it is. As long as it seems so.

No difference in anything really, that is why I dance and create. 

I am getting drunk in my own moves. 

Has nothing to do with ego. And has everything to do with it.

I see mirrors. I see in them what fits.

My ideas and projects are on a cosmic scale.

I want to see all limits and walk right through them. I might as well save the world from slavery 

Notice how egoic that sounds. 

But... Where is this... Ego? 

Is it painted on these words? Or are these... just random simbols? 

 

 

 

 

You are a great artist!

"The ego" is the attachment to the idea of self. Please see the post above, i've updated.

By the way, blaming the ego is creating two egos.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[ivankiss]

2 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

"The ego" is the attachment to the idea of self.

Is that not an idea as well? 

Self = No self = Self.

Thank you though. 

Will read your post.

I like making no sense. Excuse my ignorance if it seems to be apparent.

[Aakash]

@Anton Rogachevski i Swear i was sleeping last night and contemplating non duality ... the conclusion i came to after i woke up was simple enlightenment is nothing else besides the delusion of self. 

WHATEVER you define as self is go, 

if the imagination was not from whatever you define as your ego, then it is pure awareness 

it can only be told by the person, because enlightenement is literally just one self-delusion 

Time is another self -delusion, it actuallly has nothing to do with enlightenment imo 

Then the delusion that space is another seperate delusion, 

but the fastest way to become conscious of all this is the process of enlightenment or god consciousness because you identify with literally just everything and comtemplate it 

[ivankiss]

1 minute ago, Aakash said:

 

but the fastest way to become conscious of all this is the process of enlightenment or god consciousness because you identify with literally just everything and comtemplate it 

Including nothing, yes.

Ego is not to be confused with Purpose.

Purpose is inevitable.

Ego may be so aligned with the Purpose, that it may seem like Ego is all there is.

When in fact...It's Divinity and cosmic perfection.

[Aakash]

It's Divinity and cosmic perfection.

the true-true 

but @ ivankiss is better at illustrating it, than myself. 

I'm still grasping the new paradigm that i'm starting to experience 

[Aakash]

@Anton Rogachevski i can't explain it, logic and reasoning has completely faded. I actually don't know whats real and whats not . I'm actually so fearful of how unrealistic things sound in my head <-- this is my ego. 

Even i know its crazy to think your crazy, i think i'm so weird right now. so i just stopped and listened to rap music in ignorance looool! 

^ This is why i've come to understand the limitation is set by the invidiual personally 

[Anton Rogachevski]

1 hour ago, Aakash said:

Even i know its crazy to think your crazy,

This is the sanest thought possible. This proccess has been described as going crazy in the past. Let go! Allow yourself to lose your mind completely. Surrender to not-knowing.