How can you trust your mind?

[ground]

4 hours ago, ivankiss said:

@ground Why do you assume that one is somehow unable to have a belief and simultaniously see through it?

Because belief is imputation of truth. And it is impossible to impute truth and see emptiness [of truth] at the same time. Consciousness may switch from one mode into the other - even at high frequency - but it can never have these two modes at the same time.

4 hours ago, ivankiss said:

I look at my hand and I believe it's a hand.

But that does not mean I don't recognize the belief itself.

Of course you can conceive 'this is [merely] a belief' but even if you conceive so there is still the apparent hand. And if you dissolved the label 'hand' but not directly perceived the nature of belief there still would be 'something', at least intuitively not necessarily a full-fledged concept. If there were no belief at all there'd be neither something nor nothing.

 

 

[ivankiss]

@ground "Simultaniously" might be an inappropriate word if taken strictly. But you get the point.

Also, who says "it is impossible to impute truth and see emptiness [of truth] at the same time." ?

I am not to be nothing merely.

I am to recognize nothing and make something out of it.

How does life occur over there? Does it occur at all? If there is no one, only pure nothingness, how does that interract; function? Are you open about it in your every social encounter?

Do you interract with everybody as if they were nothing as well? As if they literally are you?

Or do you just laugh "from the inside" and play out whatever you play out?

I am honestly curious.

I understand there might be no trace of an Ego.

But there must be beingness. Isness. Awareness.

What is that like over there?

I dig you tho, nothing.

Edited December 30, 2018 by ivankiss

[Anton Rogachevski]

5 hours ago, ivankiss said:

For me, there is no such thing as "real" or "unreal". 

If it seems to be, it is. As long as it seems so.

No difference in anything really, that is why I dance and create. 

Careful with confusing enlightenment for - "pretending not care about anything." One cannot think his way into liberation.

"You can't wash blood off, with blood." (old zen quote)

[ivankiss]

@Anton Rogachevski No need to pretend.

Autenthicity is present. My intention is not to dishonor enlightenment or it's seekers.

I merely express the one from this angle.

Like the quote; I agree.

[Anton Rogachevski]

@ivankiss

Great to hear. It's just a common trap, in any case it's good to be aware of it.

In a sense there's truth to the fact that thought is free, and one can play with it, and form the reality in which it's comfortable for him to live. It's a great post-rational insight - It frees you, and allows unconditional positive regard. You decide what's right for you, and no one can ever change that, you put your opinion at the top, and become self honest about things. It's really been healing my soul, to be free. 

Thank you for reading and being here dear friend,
Hope to see more of your material here,
And I'm sorry if I hurt you in any way with my arrogance.

Actually our deep mutual contemplation beared fruits today, I had massive insight into the nature of thought (post it as soon as it's ready)

Edited December 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[SOUL]

8 hours ago, ground said:

And all you see is your beliefs

...and that is your belief which you believe is all you see but you cannot create this experience for anyone else except your own self.

7 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Does me believing anything about these posts change anything? 

It does. My experience.

This comes to the core of this thread's topic, can we trust our own mind if is capable of being deluded? Belief is the psychological trust we place into something being what it appears to be. So can we trust the trust of our mind? If in our experience we have the cessation of self suffering then there is no doubt in our liberation even if it is a delusion, it is what it is because it is our experience of it.

8 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Could it be...That the dance has no meaning...

Because you believe there is no meaning?

There is a delicate dance between what we perceive things to be and what really is. So even though we get to draw our own map of meaning, our perception of what is doesn't actually change what really is but just maps out how we perceive it. This is why I create a simple map that doesn't have difficult requirements for the cessation of self suffering so I do experience that liberation.

 

8 hours ago, ivankiss said:

You all show some dope dance moves here.

Why are you dancing in the first place?

In celebration of life....

8 hours ago, ground said:

If one imputes the tiniest bit of truth to conceptuality one will never let go of beliefs and 'lean towards' belief.

So you impute truth to the concept and belief that if one imputes the tiniest bit of truth to conceptuality one will never let go of belief and lean towards belief so you don't let go of this belief and lean towards it. See how that works? Dances with words....

7 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Why do you assume that one is somehow unable to have a belief and simultaniously see through it?

Precisely. Although, it is when we identify with the belief and attach our 'self' to it that there is the potential to self suffer because of it. This is why I suggest in unattached awareness of the self and it's contents including belief allows for liberation from self suffering. My own experience realizes this even if it is merely a delusion...haha

6 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

"The ego" is the attachment to the idea of self.

I liken the ego to the self's advocate......it wants us to attach and works to attach to the construct and content of self to justify itself.

7 hours ago, ivankiss said:

I am getting drunk in my own moves.

This is us.....

Dancing with delusion.

[Anton Rogachevski]

11 minutes ago, SOUL said:

7 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

"The ego" is the attachment to the idea of self.

I liken the ego to the self's advocate......it wants us to attach and works to attach to the construct and content of self to justify itself.

Since it's an idea in the first place, how can it "want"?

[Azrael]

On 12/27/2018 at 1:05 AM, Roman Edouard said:

My question is: how can you be sure that any beliefs you hold are true if there is strong evidence that humans are naturally deluded creatures?

Your question is misleading. A belief can never be right or wrong as it abstracts a set of similar experiences to a never seen, idealized model that doesn't exist. Take a perfect circle for example. You have seen endless very close approximations of a circle, but you have actually never seen the real thing in its mathematical perfection. Although you use the concept of this perfect circle as the mean or belief to differentiate all the approximates you see from different objects.

So your question should be: How can you be sure that any beliefs you hold are useful if there is strong evidence that humans are naturally deluded creatures.

[ivankiss]

@SOUL Love it, haha!

I look at it this way;

I am unable to tell if there is a mind besides my own. How could I possibly know that? 

I can recieve no evidence of these "minds" through my direct experience. 

All I know is that there are thoughts, beliefs, actions, appearances. And something that claims those it's own. This core idea; belief. Ivan.

And than there is also awareness. Nothingness. Infinity.

Aware of all those. Of itself.

What do I compare the sanity of my mind to? 

How can I know my mind is less or more deluded than any other? There is no way to tell that.

Therefore, my conclusion is that, from where I stand, there is no other mind who can be trusted.

Sanity is insanity. 

[SOUL]

3 hours ago, ground said:

Because belief is imputation of truth.

You are a very active imputer of truth on this forum with all your beliefs about what is impossible or can't or must and on and on that you attempt to project onto everyone else's experience.

 

[ivankiss]

@Anton Rogachevski Brilliant! 

No arrogance was noticed. I am very glad to see this interaction occur.

Much pleasant feelz.

Eager to read about your insight! 

You have my respect, kind sir!

[SOUL]

3 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Since it's an idea in the first place, how can it "want"?

Well, the ego is the personification of our self's desire to identify with itself so even though it's not much more than a conceptual construct it is a manifestation of the many impulses, urges, ideas, beliefs, thoughts, desires and mental paradigms.

[Anton Rogachevski]

3 minutes ago, SOUL said:

12 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Since it's an idea in the first place, how can it "want"?

Well, the ego is the personification of our self's desire to identify with itself so even though it's not much more than a conceptual construct it is a manifestation of the many impulses, urges, ideas, beliefs, thoughts, desires and mental paradigms.

And so it's the impulses that dellude. The innocent little ego is the devil's scapegoat.

Therefore any statement beginning with: "My ego" is basically delusion.

[SOUL]

7 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

How can I know my mind is less or more deluded than any other? There is no way to tell that.

Which do you seek? To 'know if mind is deluded' or to 'experience the cessation of self suffering'? I experience the cessation of self suffering and if that liberation is merely a delusion then so be it..... let's dance!

[SOUL]

1 minute ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

And so it's the impulses that dellude. The innocent little ego is the devil's scapegoat.

Therefore any statement beginning with: "My ego" is basically delusion.

The 'man behind the curtain'.....the man, the curtain and the 'behind' are all a delusion. Haha

[Forestluv]

45 minutes ago, SOUL said:

There is a delicate dance between what we perceive things to be and what really is. So even though we get to draw our own map of meaning, our perception of what is doesn't actually change what really is but just maps out how we perceive it. 

This seems like a dance between subjective perception / meaning of “what is” and an objective “what really is”. 

If so, what is “really is”? Can what “really is” be determined?

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

This seems like a dance between subjective perception / meaning of “what is” and an objective “what really is”. 

If so, what is “really is”? Can what “really is” be determined?

It absolutely is that dance between the subjective perception and objective isness. It seems this is what the original  topic was touching on.

Quite often this dance of delusion in trying to 'find the truth' is a fixation which serves as a source of self suffering more than it is a cessation of it.

In a recent conversation somebody said to me they had no problem with suffering to find the truth because truth was their ultimate goal.

Although all we are finding is our personal subjective truth with no  assurances that it is universal objective truth despite the proclamations that it is.

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by SOUL

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, SOUL said:

It absolutely is that dance between the subjective perception and objective isness. 

What is objective “isness”? Can it be determined or described?

[SOUL]

15 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

What is objective “isness”? Can it be determined or described?

 It absolutely is determined, this is what the Manifest universe is, with the quantum craziness aside.

Yet there are no assurances that we perceive the objective isness accurately but may only be the subjective experience we perceive.

The unmanifest isness is still undetermined and the potential is infinite so that is all that may be described of it.

The mind trusts its own perception but do we in awareness trust the mind's trust of it's perception.

I prefer to find peace and contentment in just being even if it is a delusion of the Mind I perceive.

Edited December 30, 2018 by SOUL

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, SOUL said:

 It absolutely is determined, this is what the Manifest universe is, with the quantum craziness aside.

What is this objective “Manifest universe”? Can it be described in words?