No self = no soul?

[Jack Walter Leon]

Why are you guys so sure that the self is an illusion? Do you even deny the existence of a soul? Why do you assume that if we can't have free will we can't still have a self/soul?

From my experiences I understand that we are all connected with each other and that free will is really limited or even doesn't exist and everything is determined so that's not what I'm questioning right now.

But I think that the self is not an illusion, but rather the perception of itself, as it perceives itself as a separate individual separate from his environment.

 

[purerogue]

12 minutes ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

Why are you guys so sure that the self is an illusion? Do you even deny the existence of a soul? Why do you assume that if we can't have free will we can't still have a self/soul?

From my experiences I understand that we are all connected with each other and that free will is really limited or even doesn't exist and everything is determined so that's not what I'm questioning right now.

But I think that the self is not an illusion, but rather the perception of itself, as it perceives itself as a separate individual separate from his environment.

 

How do you answer multi dimensional  problem, deeper you look , more reality of existence changes, but you can't deny what you are experiencing just because at every level form of existence changes. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by purerogue

[cetus]

@Jack Walter Leon First I'd like to say welcome to the forum.

Your asking about something that can't be proven either way. But that being said here's my take on it. The "essence" of each of us remains in an unmanifest state eternally. Everything in existence has an essence.

 

[Matt8800]

4 hours ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

Why are you guys so sure that the self is an illusion? Do you even deny the existence of a soul? Why do you assume that if we can't have free will we can't still have a self/soul?

From my experiences I understand that we are all connected with each other and that free will is really limited or even doesn't exist and everything is determined so that's not what I'm questioning right now.

But I think that the self is not an illusion, but rather the perception of itself, as it perceives itself as a separate individual separate from his environment.

 

That has been a debate going on for a long time.

Buddhist believe there is no individualized self, even though many posit that there is reincarnation. They offer no explanation as to what is being reincarnated.

Vedanta believes that the self is not what you think it is but there is an individualized self called the Atman. What happens to the Atman when we die is debated within Vedanta.

Even after enlightenment, there is something that continues to be refined. Personally, I believe there is an Atman that continues to evolve after the death of the body.

[Vipassana]

Your personality or "soul" is your astrological programming. Go study your birth chart, it is almost as if God took a screenshot the moment you were born and planned out your whole life however dont mistake the map for the territory, this life and everything you come across in this life is merely a map that will help oneness reach oneness. 

[Leo Gura]

@Jack Walter Leon The soul as you call it is ultimately made out of spirit. And spirit is nothing.

But this is NOT the nothing you are thinking of.

[Shadowraix]

5 hours ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

But I think that the self is not an illusion, but rather the perception of itself, as it perceives itself as a separate individual separate from his environment.

You said it is not an illusion the proceeded to describe an illusion.

That perception of separation is the illusion. Separation only exists if you perceive it. Its like taking a painting and only looking at a small box inside the painting then calling that something separate. It doesn't change the oneness of the painting. So the self = everything. Identifying as a small subset of itself isn't a true representation of it.

[Jack Walter Leon]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Jack Walter Leon The soul as you call it is ultimately made out of spirit. And spirit is nothing.

But this is NOT the nothing you are thinking of.

Can you explain further what you mean? Spirit is nothing? 

[Leo Gura]

@Jack Walter Leon You must awaken to understand. It cannot be explained to you so long as you've never woken up.

[abrakamowse]

8 hours ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

Can you explain further what you mean? Spirit is nothing? 

Mi take on this is that everything has to come from nothingness. There must be a point where nothing was there, and matter manifested from that nothing... our mind can't not comprehend it, because we have an "idea" of what nothing is. 

Let's say that nothing is a state where there's all the possibilities for everything to manifest. It contradicts our logic.

In that nothingness everything is manifested. The only thing that exist is nothing, or you can call it silence, the void. 

Our mind try to separate things to understand. It says, here there's a person, a tree, an animal, etc... but everything is made of the same substance.

Awareness. Some people call it God, others the source, others nothingness, and so on...

 

God has thousands of names. It is personal and impersonal at the same time... and I won't continue writing because everything I write is not even near of what reality is. God is the ultimate reality.

Think of nothingness as the ultimate truth.

Truth shall make you free!

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by abrakamowse

[non_nothing]

Lol the truth actually closer to the opposite,

No self = yes soul

Yes self = no soul

[Privet]

21 hours ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

But I think that the self is not an illusion, but rather the perception of itself, as it perceives itself as a separate individual separate from his environment.

Self perceives itself - that's logical mistake. When you look in the mirror you think you perceive "yourself" while actually you perceive your reflection in the mirror. It's "me there in the mirror perceived by me here standing in front of it".

If you imply an "I" that perceives an "I" then there's an "I" - here that perceives and an "I" - there that is being perceived. You split yourself in two by this idea which is totally illogical, a hand can't grab itself.

Look closer and see how it really works, not how you think it works, that's what self inquiry practice is made for.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Privet

[Anton Rogachevski]

Any "soul" one can be aware of is the wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Anton Rogachevski]

22 minutes ago, Privet said:

Self perceives itself - that's logical mistake.

It's not a mistake, it is the ultimate truth. In reality a hand can't grab itself, yet god can grab himself, and that's the source of all creation.

[Privet]

4 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

yet god can grab himself, and that's the source of all creation

Let's not get lost in semantics trivia, there's no value to just blindly assimilate this belief.

God doesn't deny logic, it includes and transcends it. God emerges when logic fails, thus there's the ultimate "mistake" that leads towards God's emergence.

Any thesis is misleading, thus we need to ask questions that point toward the experiential answer.

[Joseph Maynor]

I think it's good that you have a sense of what you believe and you also seem to value truth enough to want to protect that even in the face of people trying to sell you on other beliefs.  Keep doing the work.  You can't really be Enlightened without a deep love of Truth, at least in the early to middle stages of the Path.  Eventually even Truth is transcended on the Path.  But you have to cling to Truth before you can let it go.  

Edited December 27, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Anton Rogachevski]

3 hours ago, Privet said:

Let's not get lost in semantics trivia, there's no value to just blindly assimilate this belief.

God doesn't deny logic, it includes and transcends it. God emerges when logic fails, thus there's the ultimate "mistake" that leads towards God's emergence.

Any thesis is misleading, thus we need to ask questions that point toward the experiential answer.

Yes. The question "Am I aware?"

Awareness is aware of itself. Just look at your experience right now, that is it. No mystical magic show. (If that's what you seek, then some dmt wouldn't hurt.)

Edited December 27, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[ground]

On 26.12.2018 at 0:35 PM, Jack Walter Leon said:

But I think that the self is not an illusion, but rather the perception of itself, as it perceives itself as a separate individual separate from his environment.

That's an appropriate view to start with. So one may say: self is not an illusion but like or similar to an illusion since the way it appears is not the way it actually exists. Seeing it that way self is not negated. What is negated is it's way of appearance.

[Privet]

35 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

No mystical magic show.

From my experience it's hell of a show, so funny you can't get enough air.

[Nahm]

@Privet ♥️??