Meditation V Day Dreaming

[rush]

Hey guys,

Can someone make it clear what the distinction between these 2 things are. How can you be sure, especially when using the do nothing technique, you are not just daydreaming.

I think this was mentioned in a comment on a video and Leo said daydreaming does not produce any results.

[Infinite]

You'll know the difference based on whether or not you're consciously aware throughout the process. If you're not aware, you're not effectively meditating.  

[cetus]

1 hour ago, rush said:

Hey guys,

Can someone make it clear what the distinction between these 2 things are. How can you be sure, especially when using the do nothing technique, you are not just daydreaming.

I think this was mentioned in a comment on a video and Leo said daydreaming does not produce any results.

@rush That's a great question. I have always daydreamed a lot. I know that's just mind, but mind can really travel. I would often put that to use designing something useful. And other times awareness would become a blank space. What is called "staring off into space". I would suddenly come back into self awareness and wonder "where did I just go?"  I never thought of it as a negative thing.  Actually it felt pretty good. I experienced that since I can remember. Probably A.D.D. Hehe          So it seems like it all depends on if there is content to the awareness or if it is empty.  I now learned to place intention on empty awareness through  meditation and integrated that into what I have always experienced.  

Edited April 12, 2016 by cetus56

[Azrael]

What is the difference between a professional piano player and me hammering those keys unconsciously but gently and good-looking with sound off? Basically, I can trick you into believing both pictures display the same scene.

However, as I turn on the sound very slowly and steadily you begin to notice that although both scenes may look the same, there is a whole other dimension you weren't able to see because you overlooked that little innocent button that made all the difference.

Meditation is turning on this button that was always there but seemed gone.

[cetus]

25 minutes ago, Infinite said:

You'll know the difference based on whether or not you're consciously aware throughout the process. If you're not aware, you're not effectively meditating.  

@Infinite During a deep meditation, awareness sometimes vanishes. Than comes back again to a silent witness of emptiness. You are saying I should stay at being a silent awareness at all times during meditation? Don't vanish into it?

[Markus]

Daydreaming is when you get so lost in thought you think what you're thinking is what's really going on. The reason it's called daydreaming is because it works exactly like a dream: you're in an environment entirely projected by your mind and you think that is real. That's what happens in non-lucid dreams, that's what happens in daydreaming. 

In meditation, you're trying to be aware of the substance of thoughts, not the content of them.

As for "do nothing", to worry about whether you're daydreaming or not is to do the technique wrong. If a worry arises, sure, let it be. But don't actively worry. All you have to do is not make any effort to change what's going on, and as soon as you do notice an effort, release it. 

[Infinite]

11 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

@Infinite During a deep meditation, awareness sometimes vanishes. Than comes back again to a silent witness of emptiness. You are saying I should stay at being a silent awareness at all times during meditation? Don't vanish into it?

@cetus56 How does awareness vanish? Awareness can only appear to vanish when one is unaware of the ever present awareness. It's not possible for awareness to vanish. Even in the deepest levels of Samadhi when there is only void, awareness is still present. Am I not understanding something? 

[cetus]

1 hour ago, Infinite said:

@cetus56 How does awareness vanish? Awareness can only appear to vanish when one is unaware of the ever present awareness. It's not possible for awareness to vanish. Even in the deepest levels of Samadhi when there is only void, awareness is still present. Am I not understanding something? 

@Infinite  "Am I not understanding here". Same question.  Could each of our minds be just a refection of each other? Two mirrors facing each other?    "When one is unaware".  What becomes unaware? That's the paradox. What remains or returns to know that a total void happened while meditating? There is no experience or awareness to bring back but something remains to know that.  Non-existence is beyond all "known" awareness.  Awareness is a part of the manifest realm as far as what we are discussing as mind and knowing. Does pure awareness continue to be present within the non-manifest/void? Mind will never know that. I've experienced a state of pure being. Nothing but the pure bliss of empty awareness ( Samadhi?) But  mind can recall all of the experience.  Samadhi being a state of bliss, a bridge between the mind and the absolute void of non-existence?

[cetus]

14 hours ago, Infinite said:

@cetus56 How does awareness vanish? Awareness can only appear to vanish when one is unaware of the ever present awareness. It's not possible for awareness to vanish. Even in the deepest levels of Samadhi when there is only void, awareness is still present. Am I not understanding something? 

@Infinite Nirvikalpa samādhi, on the other hand, absorption without self-consciousness, is a mergence of the mental activity (cittavṛtti) in the Self, to such a degree, or in such a way, that the distinction (vikalpa) of knower, act of knowing, and object known becomes dissolved — as waves vanish in water, and as foam vanishes into the sea.[3]   *This seems to explain what I am referring to as "Vanishing".  It happens from time to time. Not always.

Edited April 13, 2016 by cetus56

[Infinite]

3 hours ago, cetus56 said:

@Infinite Nirvikalpa samādhi, on the other hand, absorption without self-consciousness, is a mergence of the mental activity (cittavṛtti) in the Self, to such a degree, or in such a way, that the distinction (vikalpa) of knower, act of knowing, and object known becomes dissolved — as waves vanish in water, and as foam vanishes into the sea.[3]   *This seems to explain what I am referring to as "Vanishing".  It happens from time to time. Not always.

@cetus56 I was going to explain something along those lines, but you got to it before me. 

There's a distinction between mental awareness and existential awareness, but the two always get confused. Being consciously aware is an activity of the mind, and regardless of whether or not one is consciously aware, the ever present existential awareness always remains. Awareness can never leave, it can only be overlooked. 

Once the distinction between mental awareness and existential awareness is understood, the answer to "What becomes unaware?" is obvious. It's not that awareness ever left, but that the mind was no longer cognizant of the awareness that was always there. 

When I said "If you're not aware, you're not effectively meditating.", I was referring to the mental activity of being consciously aware. In reality, there's nothing you could really do to be aware because you already are aware. All you could ever really do is increase your conscious awareness, which is a mental activity.  

Enlightenment is beyond the mind because awareness is beyond the mind. You cannot add to, or reduce from awareness. You can only add to, or reduce from mental awareness. The act of "expanding" one's awareness, is simply the act of becoming more cognizant of what was already there.

This is why you sometimes hear people who are enlightened saying that there's nothing anyone can do to become enlightened. This is true in a sense because you're already enlightened, since awareness is all there is, and anything you try to do to become enlightened is simply mental activity. The issue with this is that, although the process may ultimately be illusory, it completely devalues how necessary the process is. 

[Henri]

Daydreaming is lack of prana.

Do pranayamas.

[cetus]

@Infinite Thank you, very useful information. Since I have experienced  the disappearance of "existential awareness" in meditation I really didn't know what that was that happens from time to time. I wasn't sure if I should avoid it and stay mindful or just except it when it does happen. I'll probably just leave it to the powers at will for now? I'm not totally sure about what to do. Thanks for bringing up the word "Samadhi". I looked up the definition and it gave me some answers. *I'm not saying by any means that's what I experience. Thanks again 

[Infinite]

@cetus56 You can't really experience the disappearance of "existential awareness" though, because this awareness is what you intrinsically are. The only awareness that can be increased/decreased, is mental awareness. When mental awareness is lost, this then creates the illusion that existential awareness is lost. 

When I say "existential awareness", I am referring to the true self. Since the true self is often referred to as awareness, it is important to understand the distinction between mental awareness, and the true self. If this distinction isn't understood, it starts to sound contradictory when talking about raising awareness (mental awareness), while simultaneously talking about how awareness is what you truly are. 

[cetus]

Thanks for making that distinction. It sounds like it is mental awareness that sometimes is lost from you description. Like I said, it doesn't happen very often but when it does I always wonder what that is. It happens when true self or "pure being" (as i call it) is experienced as floating in a silent, infinite ocean. In that state there is a silent witness also of that experience happening. I once put out the intention to dissolve into that silent ocean, and I did. That's when it happens. I know I'n not dozing off. I know the difference. Than awareness comes back and continues floating in that silent ocean. Only at that point do I realize that I had vanished for a moment or two. That is the impression it gives. I thought I was experiencing absolute nothingness or total non-existence.  So I guess by what you are saying, I am just becoming unconscious? No advantage in repeating that?  So this raises another big question for me now about what happens when the physical body dies. I thought I had some idea of the answer to that. You become non-existent. Maybe not? Who can really say for sure? I'm thinking now about Allen Watts and his talk about becoming absolute nothingness. I will listen to that again with fresh ears.

 

[Infinite]

@cetus56 I don't know if you're going unconscious or not. Based on your description, I really only see two possibilities here.

1.You're becoming so mentally aware that the mind dissolves into 'nothingness'.
2. You're going unconscious. 

I can't tell you which one it is. 

When the content within awareness ceases to be, it appears to us as if the awareness ceases to be. This is because we are fixated on the content (what we are aware of), and ignorant of the reality (awareness itself). Awareness itself is neither something nor nothing, but since we perceive ourselves to be its content, we think that it vanishes with the absence of the content.

Nothingness only appears to be nothingness, in relation to the belief that there is something other than consciousness (awareness). Awareness is all there could ever be. When you experience "absolute nothingness", which is the absence of experience (content), you then say "I realize that I had vanished". It's not that "you" vanished, it's that what you believe yourself to be vanished. Without being aware of the eternal self, the absence of content gets interpreted as the absence of self. 

Think about what occurs during deep sleep. In deep sleep we think that awareness vanishes because there is a complete absence of experience. In reality however, the state of deep sleep is pure awareness. Pure awareness simply means awareness without content.

[cetus]

When  there is that state of pure self or pure being, the bliss of that experience arises from the very fact that there is no content. Empty awareness is being experienced.  But so is time. I have a general idea of how long I have been in that state. That's the part that I kind of have a problem with, time. All I can suggest is try experiencing what I am talking about and decide for yourself. Or maybe you have already. It does feel a lot like when deep sleep happens. But I remain in my posture. My head doesn't nod or anything. Just for the hell of, try it sometime. When your in that deep state of silent bliss beyond all thought and there is just a silent witness, dissolve into it. See what happens.

[cetus]

@Infinite 1.You're becoming so mentally aware that the mind dissolves into 'nothingness'.                                                                                                      From the perspective of mind, that experience it more as stillness or awareness becoming so prevalent that "mental awareness " or "mind" or self awareness become totally consumed.    To vanish? or not to vanish?  Is that not the remainder of the ox? Where is Leo?  

[Infinite]

@cetus56 I say vanish. Mind has to dissolve back into its source, pure awareness.  

[cetus]

2 minutes ago, Infinite said:

@cetus56 I say vanish. Mind has to dissolve back into its source, pure awareness.  

@Infinite  I can feel the oneness in that statement. The totality

[rush]

@cetus56 Yep, it seems difficult to really know if your falling into the trap of day dreaming or actually meditating !