If the universe was infinite

[TheAvatarState]

@Roman Edouard Your belief that the universe is a contained sphere is... just a belief. Also, it is impossible to see the entire universe from earth. You can only see what light has reached earth, that doesn't mean there isn't more beyond. According to science, the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light. So it should become apparent that you can't rely on your perceptions from earth to possibly describe the whole thing. Part of it? Sure. The whole thing? The whole thing hasn't even been seen yet, yet alone "proven" by any means. Nor will it ever.

Let's assume the universe is a contained sphere... What lies beyond the sphere? That's a valid question! If the universe is finite, then it must reside in a "container." What is the container? What is it made of? Where did it come from? It must have existed before the big bang, right?

Now ask yourself the big questions--and really think these through. Will science EVER (in a billion years) be able to explain what lies beyond? What is science? What are its limitations? Will science ever be able to describe what time is? What space is? Is mainstream science even aware of its own limitations?

[Roman25]

2 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

@Roman Edouard Your belief that the universe is a contained sphere is... just a belief. Also, it is impossible to see the entire universe from earth. You can only see what light has reached earth, that doesn't mean there isn't more beyond. According to science, the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light. So it should become apparent that you can't rely on your perceptions from earth to possibly describe the whole thing. Part of it? Sure. The whole thing? The whole thing hasn't even been seen yet, yet alone "proven" by any means. Nor will it ever.

Let's assume the universe is a contained sphere... What lies beyond the sphere? That's a valid question! If the universe is finite, then it must reside in a "container." What is the container? What is it made of? Where did it come from? It must have existed before the big bang, right?

Now ask yourself the big questions--and really think these through. Will science EVER (in a billion years) be able to explain what lies beyond? What is science? What are its limitations? Will science ever be able to describe what time is? What space is? Is mainstream science even aware of its own limitations?

Yeah, it's my assumption of mine that the universe is a sphere. Mainly because things that expand outward in all directions are usually spheres like stars or bubbles. And since I see the black all around the night sky it makes more sense for it to be similar to a sphere than some square or triangle or other shape. As for it expanded faster than the speed of light. Didn't know that and I'm quite shocked to read that. Science has been booming like crazy and has made living conditions easier for most people but the issue with science is when evidence is destroyed or cannot be found. Those questions that you're asking are spot on for understanding science.

[Girzo]

@Roman Edouard Humble and educate yourself.

3 minutes ago, Roman Edouard said:

As for it expanded faster than the speed of light. Didn't know that and I'm quite shocked to read that.

Let me also shock you that in current scientific understanding it's way more probable that the universe is actually flat, not a sphere.

Maybe read some scientific books if that is your thing. Start with the popular ones and then go for the more advanced ones.

By the way, I highly doubt the quality and seriousness of your 2 year practice. Switch to some more powerful tools like Kriya Yoga or psychedelics. Dropping spiritual practice after doing it for such a long time is unskillful.

 

 

[Roman25]

2 minutes ago, Girzo said:

@Roman Edouard Humble and educate yourself.

Let me also shock you that in current scientific understanding it's way more probable that the universe is actually flat, not a sphere.

Maybe read some scientific books if that is your thing. Start with the popular ones and then go for the more advanced ones.

By the way, I highly doubt the quality and seriousness of your 2 year practice. Switch to some more powerful tools like Kriya Yoga or psychedelics. Dropping spiritual practice after doing it for such a long time is unskillful.

 

 

I got into spirituality 2 years ago. I quit around 5 months ago. Even then, the only thing I've been doing for 1.7 years is breathing. I didn't meditate daily but I did most days of the week. And watched a lot of Leo's videos. Just not the ones he posted over 2 years ago. I joined the forum pretty late but not too late. I joined around 4-6 months ago.

[Girzo]

And? Start some serious practice, it can be self-inquiry, yoga, whatever rings your bell.

[TheAvatarState]

@Roman Edouard You're correct. Evidence is destroyed. Science funding is controlled by big businesses and government, so it's mostly only concerned with what will make the biggest economic gains in the short term, and that's a travesty. However, the biggest blunder of all is that science is not aware of its own limitations. Listening to Michio Kaku and the like, they're spending their lives searching for the "God" equations that will describe the universe, for they think that the universe is material and mechanical. I want you to know, right now, that this is a fundamentally fruitless pursuit. Don't believe me, go research this for yourself. All the evidence is right in front of you, it just requires a radically open mind...

Like you said, science is amazing and has drastically improved living conditions. I'm not knocking science at all, in fact, I appreciate it more than probably most scientists. Why? Because instead of studying one specific field, spending all my energy on mastering one subdivided construct of reality, I focused on understanding the big picture. It is only by getting the big picture right (the Absolute context), that you can understand what science is and what it can and cannot do. Science is a beautiful thing. But be open to the possibility that it's just a man-made framework of viewing the world. The laws of physics aren't inherent to reality, they help to describe reality in our narrow, human-centered perspective. Science describes reality with symbols (variables), and it will attempt to describe what other variables are by shuffling the symbols around in equations. But science is incapable of getting to the root. What is time? What is space? Science will describe these only in respect to other variables, but it can't get an understanding of the variables themselves. Science confuses the map for the territory. Try to get this.

[Roman25]

3 minutes ago, Girzo said:

And? Start some serious practice, it can be self-inquiry, yoga, whatever rings your bell.

The main reason why I quit is because I was depressed from reading his comments before he quit https://www.actualized.org/forum/profile/9958-thanatos13/

Smart guy and I agree with most of what he says. Only issue is that he doesn't think life is worth living. I may come back into spirituality though. Time will tell.

4 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

@Roman Edouard You're correct. Evidence is destroyed. Science funding is controlled by big businesses and government, so it's mostly only concerned with what will make the biggest economic gains in the short term, and that's a travesty. However, the biggest blunder of all is that science is not aware of its own limitations. Listening to Michio Kaku and the like, they're spending their lives searching for the "God" equations that will describe the universe, for they think that the universe is material and mechanical. I want you to know, right now, that this is a fundamentally fruitless pursuit. Don't believe me, go research this for yourself. All the evidence is right in front of you, it just requires a radically open mind...

Like you said, science is amazing and has drastically improved living conditions. I'm not knocking science at all, in fact, I appreciate it more than probably most scientists. Why? Because instead of studying one specific field, spending all my energy on mastering one subdivided construct of reality, I focused on understanding the big picture. It is only by getting the big picture right (the Absolute context), that you can understand what science is and what it can and cannot do. Science is a beautiful thing. But be open to the possibility that it's just a man-made framework of viewing the world. The laws of physics aren't inherent to reality, they help to describe reality in our narrow, human-centered perspective. Science describes reality with symbols (variables), and it will attempt to describe what other variables are by shuffling the symbols around in equations. But science is incapable of getting to the root. What is time? What is space? Science will describe these only in respect to other variables, but it can't get an understanding of the variables themselves. Science confuses the map for the territory. Try to get this.

I like your point that science is a great tool to view the world and that there are other great tools as well. And I can tell that you know a lot about science because you have a very strong understanding of its flaws.

[cetus]

19 minutes ago, Girzo said:

Let me also shock you that in current scientific understanding it's way more probable that the universe is actually flat, not a sphere.

@Girzo That wouldn't suprise me at all. I've experianced reality as being flat field from time to time. It happens suddenly without a thought.

[Roman25]

1 minute ago, cetus56 said:

@Girzo That wouldn't suprise me at all. I've experianced reality as being flat field from time to time. It happens suddenly without a thought.

I can't imagine a flat universe. At all. Doesn't seem right

[TheAvatarState]

3 minutes ago, Roman Edouard said:

I can't imagine a flat universe. At all. Doesn't seem right

The best thing I could ever tell you is this: drop all ideologies and attachments.

Appreciate that you came into this world not knowing anything. Become a child again, and genuinely explore the world and yourself, with no attachment to where it might lead. Only then will you be able to experience true personal growth.

[Roman25]

8 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

The best thing I could ever tell you is this: drop all ideologies and attachments.

Appreciate that you came into this world not knowing anything. Become a child again, and genuinely explore the world and yourself, with no attachment to where it might lead. Only then will you be able to experience true personal growth.

I like the way you talk. You have a lot of great wisdom to share 

[Hellspeed]

Is infinite at fractal level that is for sure. I haven't measured the immensity of the seen, so i don't know, nobody knows. 

[TheAvatarState]

@Roman Edouard Thank you. Best of luck in your journey! And if you have any other questions, feel free to shoot me a DM. I'm in my early journey myself, and honestly still trying to figure this stuff out, lol. All we're doing here is trying to learn and grow together

[Shadowraix]

On the topic of drugs: It is a common assumption for people that the default state of the mind is the most correct state, but is that really true? The brain at default is no different than drugs. Its all chemicals that is being used to interpret information. By this all interpretations are equally valid if you don't ride on an appeal to popularity game. All drugs give you some bigger picture of reality itself. Some people get too caught up in one aspect and forget the previous. But if you build a bigger more holistic view, you can rise up above both.

Remember that science is a model of the the reality we experience. Science measures patterns but there is no guarantee reality is following the patterns we measure or that it will continue to be consistent. So using science as the holy grail of describing reality will fall short and lock you into ideology. No model can fully encompass something infinite in its fundamental form.

When you talk of the universe you are creating a separation here - how much of the universe there is we do not know. Consciousness expresses itself in every way possible which results in infinity. This is simply one story inside the infinite story. 

But hearing this from me and believing it is all bullshit. The whole point of meditation and self inquiry in this work is for you to directly experience it. To rise above the ideological confines of being 'human' and to realize you are everything. Psychedelics help people realize this faster which would take much longer without it. LSD showed me separation is an illusory concept. Salvia showed me how illusory perception is. DXM gave me a higher understanding of nothingness. These are all experiences that go alongside the sober experience. You are always tripping. Thats the whole point of a hallucination.

Everything I am saying though is just words, concepts, and imagination that do not compare to the indescribable experiences. Believing in just words and concepts is how you get modern religion. So use your skepticism to delve deeper to question deeper. We can only offer intellectual understandings to point you where to look, but you must still look beyond the concepts.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Shadowraix

[bejapuskas]

14 hours ago, Roman Edouard said:

Sorry but no. Yes, it's true that space is not literally the color "black" but our minds interpret it that way. Space is "black" according to the definition. Scientifically, you are correct to say that black isn't a color but that wasn't the point I was getting across. If there was an infinite number of stars then it won't matter how far away they are from our eyes since they would be in all directions. Imagining a color in your mind is a topic that neuro-scientists don't understand completely so that doesn't aid your counter-argument. Your last sentence just shows that you're using emotion with your reply.

 

14 hours ago, Roman Edouard said:

And you shouldn't include emotion in your arguments. This is elementary stuff man  

 

14 hours ago, Roman Edouard said:

Yeah, educated guesses.

Your arguments are still based on assumptions, you cannot see a star infinitely far away, just as you cannot see a sign that is 50 km away from you, it's too far, basic physics. Black is not a visual mistake. You see black if there is no light basically. I fell that you include more emotion in this than I do, observe yourself. If we were 1 thousand years ago in the past, I could say that the fact, that the Earth is flat, is an educated guess, now I would look like an idiot, you never know, when science could be wrong.  

[Roman25]

10 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

 

 

Your arguments are still based on assumptions, you cannot see a star infinitely far away, just as you cannot see a sign that is 50 km away from you, it's too far, basic physics. Black is not a visual mistake. You see black if there is no light basically. I fell that you include more emotion in this than I do, observe yourself. If we were 1 thousand years ago in the past, I could say that the fact, that the Earth is flat, is an educated guess, now I would look like an idiot, you never know, when science could be wrong.  

You weren't the one who I said was including emotion. FredFred did before he edited his comment. Take a look at your hand. You can't see an individual atom in your hand since it takes up a very small amount of sight. But you can see your hand since all of the atoms are very close together and high in number which takes up more area of sight. If there were an infinite number of stars then it won't matter how far away they are. You'd still see them because they would block any available area of sight.

[bejapuskas]

@Roman Edouard Oh sorry. 

[Roman25]

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

@Roman Edouard Oh sorry. 

Not a problem lol

[Dodo]

The universe is infinite love is infinite 

[purerogue]

I have no clue what I am talking about, but I will debate for sake of debate, universe is expanding in speed that is faster then light speed,  so it is only normal that you will not see new stars, you will see less and less stars. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by purerogue