If the universe was infinite

[Roman25]

I have a hard time believing that the universe is infinite. Mainly because of 2 reasons. Space is black & you can only see so many stars.

Let's discuss reason #1. When your mind can't distinguish something due to lack of light entering your eyes, that object is seen as black. It is there but your can't interpret what it is. The color black is basically just an eye error in a way unless it's black paint or something like that. Black paint isn't the same as black when there's no light. When you look at the night sky then you see the color black. If it went on forever then it would be clear since there is nothing for you mind to perceive.

Reason #2. You can see an individual star in space. If space was infinite then there would be an infinite number of stars. So you wouldn't see the black. All you'd see is stars covering the whole sky.

Your thoughts or counter arguments?

[bejapuskas]

Who said that the Universe is covered in stars? Even if it wasn't, there could be an area without stars... The stars could also be so far away, that the light that is coming to you hasn't yet arrived...  

[Roman25]

1 minute ago, bejapuskas said:

Who said that the Universe is covered in stars? Even if it wasn't, there could be an area without stars... The stars could also be so far away, that the light that is coming to you hasn't yet arrived...  

Unlikely. The earth is 4.6 billions of years old. Light should have had more than enough time to travel to earth by now. Especially since it's the fastest thing ever. It's safe to say that the limit of stars + the fact that it's black is proof that it isn't infinite.

[Roman25]

5 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Who said that the Universe is covered in stars? Even if it wasn't, there could be an area without stars... The stars could also be so far away, that the light that is coming to you hasn't yet arrived...  

There are also people who constantly monitor the sky. There has been no news of stars randomly appearing in the sky due to the light finally reaching Earth.

[bejapuskas]

Your arguments stand on assumptions, you cannot know  

[FredFred]

@Roman Edouard There are so many things wrong with your arguments I don't know where to start...

• Space is not black.
• Black isn't a color.
• "Your mind can't distinguish something due to lack of light entering your eyes" is false. I can imagine the color red when my eyes are closed. I can distinguish between a high or low pitch even when I can't see anything.
• What do you mean by "if it went on forever then it would be clear"? Are you assuming "clear" is something the eye can see?
• What do you even mean by "If space was infinite then there would be an infinite number of stars. So you wouldn't see the black"? As far as I'm concerned no human can see infinitely far at an infinite resolution. The same way you can't read a sign 50km away, you can't see a star that's 10 billion light years away.

I have no idea about what's beyond the edge of the observable universe, nor have I had mystical or higher-consciousness experiences about the subject. But those two arguments ain't a valid reason to believe the universe is finite. Why would there be something to believe though? I will continue to say : I don't know.

Edited December 22, 2018 by FredFred

[Roman25]

1 minute ago, FredFred said:

@Roman Edouard There are so many things wrong with your arguments I don't know where to start...

• Space is not black.
• Black isn't a color.
• "Your mind can't distinguish something due to lack of light entering your eyes" is false. I can imagine the color red when my eyes are closed. I can distinguish between a high or low pitch even when I can't see anything.
• What do you mean by "if it went on forever then it would be clear"? Are you assuming "clear" is something the eye can see?
• What do you even mean by "If space was infinite then there would be an infinite number of stars. So you wouldn't see the black"? As far as I'm concerned no human can see infinitely far at an infinite resolution. The same way you can't read a sign 50km away, you can't see a star that's 10 billion light years away.

This is elementary school science class stuff man...

Sorry but no. Yes, it's true that space is not literally the color "black" but our minds interpret it that way. Space is "black" according to the definition. Scientifically, you are correct to say that black isn't a color but that wasn't the point I was getting across. If there was an infinite number of stars then it won't matter how far away they are from our eyes since they would be in all directions. Imagining a color in your mind is a topic that neuro-scientists don't understand completely so that doesn't aid your counter-argument. Your last sentence just shows that you're using emotion with your reply.

[Roman25]

53 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Your arguments stand on assumptions, you cannot know  

Yeah, educated guesses.

[Roman25]

And you shouldn't include emotion in your arguments. This is elementary stuff man  

[Roman25]

47 minutes ago, FredFred said:

@Roman Edouard mystical or higher-consciousness experiences about the subject. But those two arguments ain't a valid reason to believe the universe is finite. Why would there be something to believe though? I will continue to say : I don't know.

Mystical and higher-conscious people just sounds like ego stroking. I hear often from spiritual people that you can become a "highly conscious" person with practice but I'm not buying that. Thinking that a highly conscious person has better answers or more wisdom than a normal person just sounds like a bubble to wrap yourself in to feel better about life and yourself. Not that it's wrong to delude yourself to feel better. Everyone does it regardless. I cannot say for certain that the universe is finite. I can only use the fact that our mind perceives it as black and what else we know about the universe to come up with an educated guess of if it's infinite or finite. 

I see enlightenment and psychedelics as a way for humans to see curvy lines while the lines are actually straight. It sounds folly to actually think that there is an experience that is known as "enlightenment'' where a biological organism gets to know the truth about reality. Or that psychedelics drugs will provide any sort of valuable insights.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Roman Edouard
An obligation to add information

[universe]

Quote

Some parts of the universe are too far away for the light emitted since the Big Bang to have had enough time to reach Earth, and so lie outside the observable universe. In the future, light from distant galaxies will have had more time to travel, so additional regions will become observable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe#The_universe_versus_the_observable_universe

 

No human can grasp the concept of infinity with the mind. Infinity and eternity are both not to be experienced with the mind. They belong to the realm of consciousness. You can not just understand infinity, you can actually be aware of it - right here - right now -

You are infinity.

It is here

It is right now

The illusion that you see yourself as something seperate from infinity is what keeps you alive.

[Antonius]

@Roman Edouard I don't know about the universe as an object. It probably can be some limited bubble in a sea of other bubbles, but reality as a whole can't possibly be limited because there would have to be a boundary. But then what is beyond that boundary? Non-existence? Try imagining non-existence. You can't.

[Roman25]

3 minutes ago, universe said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe#The_universe_versus_the_observable_universe

 

No human can grasp the concept of infinity with the mind. Infinity and eternity are both not to be experienced with the mind. They belong to the realm of consciousness. You can not just understand infinity, you can actually be aware of it - right here - right now -

You are infinity.

It is here

It is right now

The illusion that you see yourself as something seperate from infinity is what keeps you alive.

I am not infinite. That is a belief. I've heard that before, asked for evidence, got none.

[Roman25]

1 minute ago, Antonius said:

@Roman Edouard I don't know about the universe as an object. It probably can be some limited bubble in a sea of other bubbles, but reality as a whole can't possibly be limited because there would have to be a boundary. But then what is beyond that boundary? Non-existence? Try imagining non-existence. You can't.

I'm more concerned with this universe in particular and the inside of it. The outside is straight up impossible to know anything about. Imagining non-existence is most likely impossible for the following reasons: Imagining images in your mind is a survival mechanism. It allows for you to see future threats and such. It was not intended on allowing humans and other biological organisms to grasp concepts like infinity or nothingness. No one knows all of the details about how it works but that is the holy grail.

[universe]

6 minutes ago, Roman Edouard said:

I am not infinite. That is a belief. I've heard that before, asked for evidence, got none.

hehe

Thats the thing with consciousness, I cant make you conscious or show you my consciousness, you have to do the work yourself.

Otherwise the go to option for becoming enlightened would be to read a book, or take a class at university. But its meditation, train your awareness and understand how your mind works.

If you are so sure about your non-infiniteness, you will have no problem telling me where you start and where you end?

[karkaore]

@Roman Edouard Who are you? 

[Roman25]

Just now, universe said:

hehe

Thats the thing with consciousness, I cant make you conscious or show you my consciousness, you have to do the work yourself.

Otherwise the go to option for becoming enlightened would be to read a book, or take a class at university. But its meditation, train your awareness and understand how your mind works.

If you are so sure about your non-infiniteness, you will have no problem telling me where you start and where you end?

I use to meditate all the time 2 years back. Stopped several months back. Waste of time for what I want. Which is to study science as much as possible. Science admits that it doesn't know for sure (which spiritually doesn't) but it takes an educated guess. Which is good enough for me. Meditation doesn't make you more conscious. Then again, that depends on your definition of what conscious means. People tend to notoriously warp the definition of words from their original definition. 

About the where I start and where I end part. That depends on what you define as "me". If you mean my personality then that's a variety of brain activity happening. If you mean my body then that would be tricky since skin naturally turns into dust over time. I get where you're coming from since I watch the videos. Where leo was saying that "where does the air end" thing. There is no way for a human or any other animal to know ALL of what I am. The mind is built to improve survival. Not to help humans with coming up with correct answers things that they find cool and interesting.

 

[Roman25]

12 minutes ago, karkaore said:

@Roman Edouard Who are you? 

Well, this universe acts like a machine. Things happen because things just work like an algorithm. Nothing matters. So who "I" am can only be thought of by biological creatures since it is one of the things that allows for biological creatures to live. Without believing in an "I" one would not eat or do anything since nothing matters. They'd become one in the same as a rock or any other "non-living" piece of matter

Edited December 22, 2018 by Roman Edouard
Added a sentence

[cetus]

@Roman Edouard Where is the universe located?

[Roman25]

1 minute ago, cetus56 said:

@Roman Edouard Where is the universe located?

A sphere that has things like stars, planets etc. in it. It is not located anywhere since location (xyz coordinates) is a human tool. It just exists for whatever complex reasons.