A question about observing thoughts

[Anton Rogachevski]

@SOUL

[Wisebaxter]

10 hours ago, OneLittleHumanMind said:

Don't try to get rid of your wants/desires. It's just another want you'll come to see.

Healthier way at your stage is simply just observe the wants and needs of the separate self. And besides that to understand that getting what you want won't add up anything to you. Observe how you are here wanting, and then after the want is met, you are still here, unaffected. Only another separate self would want to get rid of the self, that is merely an illusion.

@OneLittleHumanMind Yes this is an interesting point that I hadn't considered, that wanting to let go of wants is indeed another want. At present there are still many wants that I feel attached to and that cause a level of suffering, but I'm able to experience a state of 'not wanting' when I remember to, and this feels very blissful. What would be more productive though, if, like you say, I can learn to accept wants when they're there and not attach to them. Otherwise I'm just hiding from them by moving into this state of 'not wanting.' This is definitely feeding into my false sense of self isn't it. 

[Wisebaxter]

8 hours ago, Jack River said:

To attend to moment to moment experiencings like inward thoughts/emotions without the past-the perceiver(labels-images)(shoulds or should nots) is how the self-thought loop stops feeding itself. It’s to starve the loop of inattention(subject/object loop). 

@Jack River Right I think I'm getting this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that the self-loop largely arises from the 'perception' of a thought after the thought has occurred? So the best thing to do is just allow thoughts to pass unhindered and stay present? Like a river flowing unhindered. I can see how this would break the subject/object loop and stop you assuming you're the one watching your thoughts. 

[Wisebaxter]

7 hours ago, SOUL said:

Awareness is a building block of the manifest existence intrinsic to everything from the effect of observation on the quantum level to the every interaction that happens in the environmental nature to the expression of self conscious experience.

@SOUL ok, I can dig that. You're saying that in a non-dual sense awareness is just another piece of the puzzle? It's no different from a thought or anything else. Rupert Spira says thought is a modulation of awareness so I can see how this makes sense. Then the true Self....this is different from awareness right? The heart on the right as Ramana Maharshi called it. 

 @Anton Rogachevski It's easy to objectify awareness in this game isn't it? Can I ask you, is awareness the same as the true self? Or just another aspect of duality? Some people imply that everything is made up of awareness and others imply that there's something beyond that, some kind of primal nothingness. I'm gonna be tripping for the first time in a few days so I might have some answers then, but fancied a bit more jibber jabber in the meantime  

[DrewNows]

11 hours ago, OneLittleHumanMind said:

Don't try to get rid of your wants/desires. It's just another want you'll come to see.

Healthier way at your stage is simply just observe the wants and needs of the separate self. And besides that to understand that getting what you want won't add up anything to you. Observe how you are here wanting, and then after the want is met, you are still here, unaffected. Only another separate self would want to get rid of the self, that is merely an illusion.

And that how you was wondering sounded very much like you need to transcend the "doer" you think yourself to be. You're not the one who suddenly wakes up from the thought-stream and decides to observe it again. You're as much during the thought-stream as you are when you exit that and emerge the knowing of awareness again. It's just that the awareness comes to know itself as it is instead of the stream of thoughts it was grounding.

@WisebaxterYes there’s a big insight here—DO NOTHING. 

If your effort will not guide you out of ego then what is left? 

One more question: who is aware of  awareness? 

[Wisebaxter]

2 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Yes there’s a big insight here—DO NOTHING. 

If your effort will not guide you out of ego then what is left? 

One more question: who is aware of  awareness? 

@DrewNows Is it awareness becoming aware of itself? 

[DrewNows]

possibly. if the true self is unchanging/always there, how do you find it? 

[Wisebaxter]

@DrewNows Look for whatever it is, in my experience, that's unchanging? But that just seems like awareness. I can find this easily. Is there something more? Also, my thoughts must also be comprised of my true Self as the knowing of them is always there and this knowing is awareness. So perhaps that's the answer - it's awareness, the knowing, this is my true self. But most teachers suggest there's more that can be discovered after years of meditation, self enquiry etc. That's what I'm interested in. I just can't understand where the hell that is as all I can experience is awareness. Or should I say all awareness can experience, is awareness 

Perhaps the rest of the work is just reversing our programming, getting rid of the 'I' thought, the subject/object distinction, which is so ingrained. 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[Jack River]

To be simple, resistance will manifest itself as an image/thought (like or dislike of experiences that arise from moment to moment). 

Can we see this resistance arise from moment to moment? That’s important. To see how the word/image etc. is directly related to movement away from the fact.

And this abstraction(thought/image is the imposition born of the past superimposed onto the present moment.  

 

The thoughts that “I” am suppose to observe are themselves the abstraction(idea/image/thought) that covers up the what-is which has no name or association without the perceiver that names /labels. The arising thoughts/images are directly related to that of the perceiver’s memory/recollection. 

 

 To start, being aware of this every moment of the day we will then start to understand this process/cycle and how we “the self”(the past) is projecting thoughts/ideas/images onto the present moment.

 

Simply we experience what ever we experience (thoughts/feelings-images) because we recognize them from the past(memory as “the perciever”) which implies we have identified with them already. 

 

Instead of trying to be aware-attentive, you will notice that you will subtly be resisting what-is. So just be aware of inattention.

 

Inattention being this process of looking at moment to moment experiences with the image/idea/thought-likes and dislikes. 

 

All that arises in the present moment is the product of the recorded past incidents/experiences psychologically.

 

When these thoughts arise we have already very subtly resisted what is. See this fact from moment to moment. It’s a fast habitual/mechanical reaction fosho. 

 

Understanding the loop holistically is really interesting and becomes very easy to not feed that loop/cycle of time. 

 

Anyway this post is just pointing at the importance of understanding the whole process and connecting all the dots. To have a holistic understanding may seem difficult to us now, but it’s actually very simple once we see thought as a whole without it’s apparent distinctions/fragments/perciver, and instead obseve the entire movement itself at once. Then it’s actually very simple. 

 

This is the cycle of resistance/attachment/identification (movement-time). 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

This understanding transcends the limits of intellectual/conceptual understanding. 

Intellectual/conceptual understanding implies divided action(therefore not action) 

Holistic understanding is undivided action(actual action). 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Jack River

[Wisebaxter]

@Jack River Thanks Jack. I'm going to soak in your words fully and then come back to you with any questions I have. There's bound to be a few  

[Jack River]

30 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@Jack River Thanks Jack. I'm going to soak in your words fully and then come back to you with any questions I have. There's bound to be a few  

Fosho. 

It can all be observed directly by any of us. But when these images/ideas/thoughts(likes, dislikes)(psychological time) are in full swing we are unable to see the entirety of all of that arising directly. Unable to then see what is as it is. 

We may see that when these thoughts/images arise from moment to moment that is escaping from THE NOW.

That’s how THE NOW (contentment, happiness, satisfaction, peace) is continually pushed further and further away in time-future. This is the root of suffering.

By seeking freedom/happiness in time/thought we perpetually prevent happiness/freedom right NOW. 

This happiness/freedom/joy/beauty/love (truth) is always NOW. To admit time/thought psychologically we resist all that good stuff of the now.?

 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Jack River

[SOUL]

2 hours ago, Wisebaxter said:

ok, I can dig that. You're saying that in a non-dual sense awareness is just another piece of the puzzle? It's no different from a thought or anything else. Rupert Spira says thought is a modulation of awareness so I can see how this makes sense. Then the true Self....this is different from awareness right? The heart on the right as Ramana Maharshi called it.

Well, I won't suggest I know what either Spira or Maharishi meant because words are interpreted differently. Although, it seems to me from a mystical point of view and even a scientific point of view that thoughts are an accumulation of awareness in many forms and layers that culminates in the sensations in the mind called thoughts.

Then another form of awareness in the present moment, our being now, is made aware of these mind sensations called thoughts that manifest in many forms such as inner dialog. memories, conceptual ideas, paradigm, emotions, intuition, impulses, urges. They are the way the body attempts to motivate our behavior to self survive.

The awakening that leads to liberation is us freeing our aware being now from the identity of self conscious which is naturally occurring. In not being attached to that self identity serving psychological mechanism and what is produced by it we cease to be motivated and influenced by this source of self suffering.

[Anton Rogachevski]

6 hours ago, Wisebaxter said:

is awareness the same as the true self? Or just another aspect of duality?

It might be true, but it becomes false the moment you say it. Since true and false are a duality, and so is nothing vs everything. It both includes and transcends duality and non-duality.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Wisebaxter]

if all is one and thoughts are just a modulation of awareness, why is there so much emphasis in spirituality on detaching from thoughts and thoughts being illusion? If all is one then surely thoughts are as much a part of the whole as anything else and are no more of an illusion than awareness itself.  Why would I identify with awareness as opposed to a thought if ultimately they are comprised of the same thing? 

[Preetom]

18 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

if all is one and thoughts are just a modulation of awareness, why is there so much emphasis in spirituality on detaching from thoughts and thoughts being illusion? If all is one then surely thoughts are as much a part of the whole as anything else and are no more of an illusion than awareness itself.  Why would I identify with awareness as opposed to a thought if ultimately they are comprised of the same thing? 

You won'r realize that truth as long as you are fooled by the contents of thought. 

That's why it is emphasized to dis-identify from thoughts and see through their inherent hollow nature. Only a thought says that a thought is believable, true and real. Out of this illusory and adamant and sneaky process, thought creates a false sense of separate self that suffers and needs to attain enlightenment along with an outside world made out of matter.

See a dream as dream(modulation of awareness) and you are free from it. Nothing wrong with dreams but wouldn't it be a precarious situation if we were believing that every single of our dreams were real and true and tried to conform our lives to the dream scenarios?

Edited December 21, 2018 by Preetom

[Anton Rogachevski]

If you think you get it, you don't, if you don't get it, you've gotten it. For there is nothing and no-one to get what's been gotten all along.

[Wisebaxter]

8 hours ago, Preetom said:

See a dream as dream(modulation of awareness) and you are free from it. Nothing wrong with dreams but wouldn't it be a precarious situation if we were believing that every single of our dreams were real and true and tried to conform our lives to the dream scenarios?

@Preetom

What is it about thoughts that makes them illusory? As opposed to something else which is real? Couldn't my experience of this moment be an illusion? Is that what we're trying to get to with enlightenment, to attain a state of consciousness where we see through this dream state into reality? Some gurus say that the experience of awakening is nothing special, that it's here right now, others say that there are unfathomable, unspeakable truths to be uncovered. I suppose all we can do is go deep into being and see for ourselves. I'm certainly over-thinking things. If thought is an illusion then I'm never gonna get it like this am I. The closest I can come to something pure is just letting go of seeking. Complete surrender. Is this the path? I suppose thought is better for describing the path than it is the destination 

7 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

If you think you get it, you don't, if you don't get it, you've gotten it. For there is nothing and no-one to get what's been gotten all along.

 @Anton Rogachevski So it's a state of not knowing, that's what we're after? That certainly feels good to me. The subject\object relationship dies and there is just experience. But is there something beyond this? Once we go deeper?

[DrewNows]

8 hours ago, Wisebaxter said:

if all is one and thoughts are just a modulation of awareness, why is there so much emphasis in spirituality on detaching from thoughts and thoughts being illusion? If all is one then surely thoughts are as much a part of the whole as anything else and are no more of an illusion than awareness itself.  Why would I identify with awareness as opposed to a thought if ultimately they are comprised of the same thing? 

For this you must understand the nature of thoughts, what exactly are they implying? What creates a thought? 

You can only identify with what you believe you are..use self inquiry and find out who am I. If your tendencies pull you back into ego, repeat. Find the truth of the I am feeling. 

 

 

[Anton Rogachevski]

26 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

The subject\object relationship dies and there is just experience. But is there something beyond this? Once we go deeper?

Before enlightenment there are two shores, and the dharma can help you cross over, after you've crossed both the shores and the dharma disappear. "Beyond" and "Deeper" also disappear, just an eternal now remains. Once you get there, all doubts will lift, all questions evaporate in an instant.

We are standing before an apple tree, and I tell you, go eat the apple, and you say, but what is beyond the apple, and so you remain hungry for apples. Just eat the apple.