A question about observing thoughts

[Jack River]

I feel if you want to use a method you may wan to start understanding thoughts nature. This may allow you to not get caught up in the loop of control as the controller. 

 

Never know you may not want to do any method after getting into it. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Jack River

[SoonHei]

26 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@SoonHei thanks for taking the time to help me. Could I say then, that during meditation, when the 'I' thought vanishes and I just reside in pure being for however long, before thoughts return, I am in an enlightened state for that period? Is enlightenment just the continuation of this state?

@Wisebaxter you're welcome

 

also i like @Jack River 's pointers. read them a few times till something clicks again lol

took a while but yeah, what jack is talking about is the mechanism of how it all functions and comes together. seeing that thru is the ending of it. 

 

#StillWorkingOnItMyself

 

about your question above... each one of us is always in an enlightened state... (always outside of the Virtual Reality world while wearing the VR headset) you are not sometimes outside of the world and sometimes in it

also keep in mind, from the absolute perspective, there is no outside/inside of the world. it's ONE. but just using metaphors here

 

also yes. ending of thoughts all together and having a quite mind is the key

so when you have those periods without thoughts, try and be watchful during those

the true seeing/realization is thoughtless. it is a deep understanding which will be "felt" so to speak...

once again, the deep seeing / recognition will not be a thought

sure you can have thoughts about the realization when you first have it (likely OMGOMGOMGOMG WTFF so on.. ) but the initial direct experience or seeing/relaization is beyond thought 

[Inliytened1]

@Wisebaxter That's exactly right!  It's the part after when you come back and say oh I had a thought, and become aware of WHAT the thought was, that's the essence of observing your thoughts!

 

[Jack River]

The motive definitely determins the outcome. If I’m seeking psychological security in the future I’m inherently going to project thought in that future moment as a result.

Just as a self is seeking now, unless it sees that is a habit, and ends it, it will also seek in that future moment. Therefore never fully here now. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

Thought psychologically is not necessary. Motive/gaols are for function. To plan, to accomplish practical goals like leaning how to do things and applying what we learned (jobs/leaning language/learning an art) and such.

To project thought to live in society is necessary.

But to project thought/time to be psychologically satisfied breeds conflict/suffering. 

Freedom(psychological contentment/happiness) is literally always only now. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Jack River

[Wisebaxter]

5 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

That's exactly right!  It's the part after when you come back and say oh I had a thought, and become aware of WHAT the thought was, that's the essence of observing your thoughts!

@Inliytened1 Great, so this is what people mean by watching thoughts. Thought I was doing something wrong  

@Jack River @SoonHei Thank you guys. That's all very helpful. I'll read through what you've written a few times and contemplate things. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[SoonHei]

23 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

Thought I doing something wrong

@Wisebaxter anytime

and the next point would be to realize that YOU were never doing anything to begin with... let alone doing something wrong  

 

#OneStepAtATime

[SOUL]

A watched mind doesn't think......hehe

[Wisebaxter]

4 hours ago, SoonHei said:

and the next point would be to realize that YOU were never doing anything to begin with... let alone doing something wrong  

@SOUL Yeah we really have to watch those assumptions don't we. I love how just a simple investigation of the language we use can uncover them. It's just remembering to do it. Really helpful to have these assumptions pointed out by others. I think I can see what self enquiry is getting at. It's one thing to realise you're not the 'I' thought but to really live that, to let go of all of your old habits of falling back into it - maybe that's where the bulk of the work lies

[OneLittleHumanMind]

19 hours ago, Wisebaxter said:

@Jack River Do you have any good methods for letting go of desires? For reprogramming yourself?

Don't try to get rid of your wants/desires. It's just another want you'll come to see.

Healthier way at your stage is simply just observe the wants and needs of the separate self. And besides that to understand that getting what you want won't add up anything to you. Observe how you are here wanting, and then after the want is met, you are still here, unaffected. Only another separate self would want to get rid of the self, that is merely an illusion.

And that how you was wondering sounded very much like you need to transcend the "doer" you think yourself to be. You're not the one who suddenly wakes up from the thought-stream and decides to observe it again. You're as much during the thought-stream as you are when you exit that and emerge the knowing of awareness again. It's just that the awareness comes to know itself as it is instead of the stream of thoughts it was grounding.

[Anton Rogachevski]

You can't be aware of a thought because you are also a thought. There can only be one at a time.

"I had thoughts" "I didn't have thoughts" are both thoughts and not meditation. Think about the question: "What is a thought?"

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

You can't be aware of a thought because you are also a thought. There can only be one at a time.

"I had thoughts" "I didn't have thoughts" are both thoughts and not meditation. 

Can there be awareness of a bird chirping? Yes, because the awareness does not identify as being the bird chirp. Similarly there is awareness of thoughts - the awareness does not identify as being the thoughts. This often first manifests as an observer + object mind set, yet goes much deeper. There are mind states in which thoughts are merely impulses with mo more relevance than a bird chirp. Also, mind states without thought that go deep into thoughtless concentration. And many others.

[Jack River]

The “I” that oberves a thought determines the image that is perceived. 

When “I” (accumulated attachment/resistance/identification-the past) perceive arising moment to moment experiences, that “I” (the past-time-thought) stamps its own label-image on top of those moment to moment experiencings. 

That is this concentration itself at play. 

What happens when there is no concentration/the past projected on the present?

What does that imply? 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

To attend to moment to moment experiencings like inward thoughts/emotions without the past-the perceiver(labels-images)(shoulds or should nots) is how the self-thought loop stops feeding itself. It’s to starve the loop of inattention(subject/object loop). 

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Jack River

[Nevon]

Thoughts is a mind fuckery thing, its like a wave of ocean rising spontanously, even the thoughts like "i am not the body" or "i am pure awareness" isnt thats just another thoughts arising in consciousness?

[Anton Rogachevski]

41 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Can there be awareness of a bird chirping?

There can be an appearance of a bird chirping. And then a thought: "There is awareness of a bird."
 

The idea of "awareness of thoughts" arises after the thoughts left, along with the claimer of the one that "Had" thoughts. By calling your ego "awareness" you are putting a sheep's clothing on a wolf.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[SoonHei]

1 minute ago, Nevon said:

even the thoughts like "i am not the body" or "i am pure awareness" isnt thats just another thoughts arising in consciousness?

of course. yes. those are indeeed thoughts. and that question you asked is also a thought.  

 

i really liked how @Serotoninluv put it above

36 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Can there be awareness of a bird chirping? Yes, because the awareness does not identify as being the bird chirp.

 

also, saw this comment below on youtube under Leo's video.

It's a nice sum up.

You - as the true nature of 'you'/self - are the 'awareness' behind all thoughts. You are the awareness that hear the birds sing and see the green leaves of a tree. This 'awareness', that you truly are, is not an object, not a thought, not a thing, not a concept, not an emotion, not a feeling, not an experience, not a form of energy, not a program... it is absolutely nothing. You can call it nothingness, you can call it whatever you want. It is zero, 0, nothing, however, at the same time, you, as this awareness, is actually the only "thing" that truly exist; it's eternal, universal, you are in other words the fabric and structure of existence it self, or to put it in yet another words: you are the whole Universe. Everytime you have a thought, you have the option to just be completely aware of the thought and do NOTHING about it; you're only noticing it. The other option (the opposite option) is to align your self with the thought, that is to not become aware of it, but instead to dive into it and let it affect you and give meaning to you (in other words: more thinking). The act of thinking "oh I must stop thinking this" is not being completely aware of the thought, but rather the oppsite: diving into the thought and giving it meaning. To be completely aware of thoughts takes practice. Most people, including me to a large degree, are very, very unaware and so, so caught up in the game of playing the person they think they are. Meditating is about being completely aware of thoughts and doing nothing about them, but instead just being completely aware of them. At some point you get so good at being aware of the thoughts and not diving into them, that the mind stops 'creating' thoughts (because it's tired of you not caring about them), and you will eventually instead align with the true nature of yourself, that is: nothingness, and you will at that point experience complete ego death, which will knock your socks off, as Leo says.

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

There can be an appearance of a bird chirping. And then a thought: "There is awareness of a bird."

Can there be awareness of the bird chip without the thought “there is awareness of a bird”?

The thought is unnecessary for awareness. There is awareness without thought. And there are thoughts within awareness. 

14 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

The idea of "awareness of thoughts" arises after the thoughts left, along with the claimer of the one that "Had" thoughts. 

I am not pointing to the idea of “awareness of thoughts”. I am pointing to the actual direct experience of awareness of thoughts. 

[SoonHei]

11 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Can there be awareness of the bird chip without the thought “there is awareness of a bird”?

The thought is unnecessary for awareness. There is awareness without thought. And there are thoughts within awareness. 

Wow. @Serotoninluv

 

Thanks.

 

I think i recall rupert spira about making a distinction between simply awareness vs 'awareness of'

 

You illustrated that nicely there

[Anton Rogachevski]

27 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Can there be awareness of the bird chip without the thought “there is awareness of a bird”?

There cannot.

 

27 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

And there are thoughts within awareness. 

This is also a thought. How do you know where thoughts "are"?

 

30 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The thought is unnecessary for awareness.

This is a groundless basic assumption.

 

31 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

direct experience of awareness of thoughts. 

Please explain this statement. How can there be awareness of thoughts?