A question about observing thoughts

[Wisebaxter]

Ok so when doing a certain type of meditation you're supposed to watch thoughts going by, but when I watch for thoughts I stop having any. The only time I have thoughts is when I forget what I'm supposed to be doing, then when awareness returns I'm like 'oh, I had a thought.' But I didn't watch it as such, it's more like I became it as awareness left. Is this a normal phenomena? Can anyone here actually 'watch' their thoughts consciously? 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[SoonHei]

@Wisebaxter recognize that YOU just exist as the AWARE PRESENCE - not the body/mind sitting there in meditation watching his/her thoughts.

 

you are aware that there are no thoughts as you have a thought about watching them

you are aware that thoughts are being thought and then realize you had a thought

all of this is seen

you are doing the watching of not just thoughts, but you are watching everything all the time

that is what you must become aware of, directly so. 

[zambize]

They tend to shut up when you put them under more scrutiny with your awareness, but they still pop up.  The relationship changes a bit, but I feel pretty concious of them and my separation from them

[Wisebaxter]

@SoonHei I think I understand. There is no subject and object, just awareness. I think I get confused as when I become unconscious of what I'm supposed to be doing it feels like I just disappeared, until this thing called 'awareness' comes back. But this awareness that returns is really just another thought that says 'oh, I forget what I was supposed to be doing. There's a sense of 'me-ness to it, me returning. Maybe it's the return of the nefarious 'I' thought. When my mind is wandering without an observer it feels like I've disappeared, like awareness/the observer is gone, but I guess it hasn't, it's just lost sight of the thought that said 'I should be observing?' 

@zambize I'm wandering if this is really what we're after...to shut thoughts up by shining the light of awareness on them. But in that statement there's an assumption that thoughts themselves aren't composed of awareness, of the infinite self. In Non-Dual terms they have to be a part of this universal I, as far as I've heard. Rupert Spira says a thought is just a temporary modulation of awareness. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[zambize]

Yeah so I meant separation in terms of I am not the content of my thoughts, however you're definitely right in terms of saying that the actual experience of the thought is very real to me, audio is one form conciousness can take

[SoonHei]

17 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

But this awareness that returns is really just another thought that says 'oh, I forget what I was supposed to be doing. There's a sense of 'me-ness to it, me returning.

You got it!

 

It is certainly a thought which includes in it your me-ness... Because,Your "me-ness" is afterall a thought. The you that you think you are and identify with right now is just a thought!

 

Let that sink in...

One thing which was kinda a shake up for me was the repeating of this line in my head

"I am not my thoughts, including this current thought"

Something about this clicked and i saw the space and separation between me and the thoughts

 

You see, what we are deep down below does not do the talking, it merely watches this play moment to moment

In this play also exist a human experience and then also of the humans discovering their true absolute nature

The realizations are communicated with and talked about with language to others and thoughts within, but all are not you... Just seen/witnessed by you.

[Wisebaxter]

@SoonHei

1 minute ago, SoonHei said:

One thing which was kinda a shake up for me was the repeating of this line in my head

"I am not my thoughts, including this current thought"

That's a good mantra, I'm gonna use that one. Maybe work it into my Neti Net practice or something.

2 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

You see, what we are deep down below does not do the talking, it merely watches this play moment to moment

I'm presuming this is something I haven't experienced yet, not just the awareness that can easily become an 'I' thought. One thing that confuses me about spirituality is....is it just awareness that's the goal? We focus on awareness with no thoughts and then we say 'aha - that's enlightenment. If I can stay in that place without thoughts I'm enlightened!' Or are we something more than awareness? Because awareness is all I can find. Teachers like Rupert Spira will say 'it's very simple, just focus on awareness,' whilst others will tell you that it takes 40 years to ride the Ox and experience non dual nothingness. If I'm something more than awareness, how do I access that? 

[SoonHei]

@Wisebaxter i am sure rupert talks about becoming aware of your true nature

The intergration of that recognition can take time but it variers. There is no set amount

 

Ultimately, when the I thought has completely / 99% vanished, one can be said to be enlightened

 

The ego needs to vanish / die / be seen for what it is - a thought, but a persistent one

 

Becoming aware of your true nature gives it that shake up to kill it.. and it isnt a one shot thing... Multiple awakenings and work is required to fully get there

 

Once it is had. Then it is realized that it was always the case... Just a case of mistaken identity...

Like for example, lets say an actor actually forgetting that he is just an actor filming a movie and then suffering from the happening / plot of the movie

 

Find out about your true nature is the goal of spirituality.

And then once you find out, it's also recognizing you were always watching the TV from the couch... You were never inside of thr world you thought you were in...

 

Or better metaphor given today's technology... It's the recognition that you were wearing a VR headset all along and has mistaken yourself to be the character appearing in the VR film

 

[Jack River]

I find it much simpler to observe thought movement from states of this to that. 

The consistent movement away from what is to what should be.

You can be sure that thoughts are arising simultaneously with this movement away from the fact to the abstraction of what it thinks/feeds should be. 

Thought responds when the self meets the moment to moment nowness with its own desire/fear/ambition/goal oriented pursuit. 

This movement of becoming other tham what is breeds thoughts. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Jack River

[Wisebaxter]

@SoonHei thanks for taking the time to help me. Could I say then, that during meditation, when the 'I' thought vanishes and I just reside in pure being for however long, before thoughts return, I am in an enlightened state for that period? Is enlightenment just the continuation of this state?

Edited December 19, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[Wisebaxter]

@Jack River So what you're saying is, when an ego arises with its 'wants,' then thoughts will occur and take you away from your Nowness into concept land? 

Recently as a practice I've been nurturing a feeling of acceptance and letting go of wants, my story, anything that comprises an ego and this seems to shut my thoughts up like never before. It just feels very blissful and I can feel love growing inside of me. Is this a good route into enlightenment? It feels a bit like the state of 'Not Knowing' that Peter Ralston talks about. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[Jack River]

Just now, Wisebaxter said:

So what you're saying is, when an ego arises with it 'wants,' then thoughts will occur and take you away from your Nowness into concept land? 

These current moment wants arise for past wants(desire). 

So we meet the present movement with what we feel should be according to the past wants(desire). 

Our likes and dislikes-wants and do not wants  that have been accumulated through memory(the past) are projected onto and as the present moment. To prevent oneness from actually being observed directly. 

[Jack River]

10 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

Recently as a practice I've been nurturing a feeling of acceptance and letting go of wants, my story, anything that comprises an ego and this seems to shut my thoughts up like never before. It just feels very blissful and I can feel love growing inside of me. Is this a good route into enlightenment? It feels a bit like the state of 'Not Knowing' that Peter Ralston talks about. 

The gaol/desire is born of memory just as those thoughts are.

To me it’s very simple, as long as we have a psychological goal/desire, we are going to project compulsive thinking in time(present moment) on top of the timeless now. 

To move with desire to attain a psychological goal is the birth of self/thought. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Jack River

[Wisebaxter]

So memory, or our 'story' presents a challenge right? This was the video that really blew me away and made me realise how much 'wants' had seeped their way into my existence. 

Adya says in the video, imagine waking up in the morning with no 'wants.' That blew me away man. 

[Wisebaxter]

@Jack River Do you have any good methods for letting go of desires? For reprogramming yourself?

[Jack River]

6 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

So memory, or our 'story' presents a challenge right? This was the video that really blew me away and made me realise how much 'wants' had seeped their way into my existence. 

Adya says in the video, imagine waking up in the morning with no 'wants.' That blew me away man. 

Fosho...the wanting, striving after/to capture/maintain a sense of psychological contentment is to depend on the future to deliver that. This inherently puts psychological freedom(the ending of compulsive thought chatter) in the future and not now. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Wisebaxter said:

@Jack River Do you have any good methods for letting go of desires? For reprogramming yourself?

No...

i simply understand thought and its relationship to the thinker. This will bring about a holistic understanding which is its own action that quiets/silences thought. 

[Jack River]

I don’t want to reprogram myself. The program of thought works on its own. But as far operating with a psychological program, well that seems to be where the problems arise. 

[Wisebaxter]

3 minutes ago, Jack River said:

i simply understand thought and its relationship to the thinker. This will bring about a holistic understanding which is its own action that quiets/silences thought. 

Amen to that 

[Jack River]

Just now, Wisebaxter said:

Amen to that 

The holistic understanding is an infinite program not limited to the limitations of limitation.