Brain Plasticity - Nature vs. Nurture

[Pilgrim]

I wonder about the old psychological question: nature or nurture? 

on one hand I can clearly see on myself that it is very difficult to change my behaviour patterns and it seems to go down to biology.. some stuff that is ingrained in my DNA and my brain structure and some subconscious beliefs I hold about myself.. (would be nature.. although the subconscious beliefs can be partly due to the surrounding as well)

And on the other hand I notice that other people influence me. But is it that they change my brain structure because they are changing my thinking? Meditation has effects on the brain, sport has effects on the brain. I am certain that the personality we have is linked to the brain.. people who have had brain tumours change their personality, taking antidepressants has an effect on the personality.. the brain functions basically decide who we are as personality and awareness decides about the reaction.. the brain gives the impulse (personality).. but with awareness I can decide how I react to the impulse. 

This awareness that could be called free will is actually the small part that decides about your character in my opinion. Everything else seems sort of programmed and the program just acts according to the current brain structure.  

My question now is, if I want to change my personality I feel that I have to change my brain structure.. we do know about brain plasticity.. essentially if I learn something new my brain is already changing. So there are multiple ways to do this.. taking a pill will obviously only work as long as I take the pill.. and meditation probably has more long-term effects on my brain structure.. yet if I stop doing it, it might also change again? 

I guess what I believe is that change is to a big degree due to nature (power of the subconscious, your unique brain structure, DNA) and to a small degree due to free will.. sort of the awareness that decides how to react to an anger outburst that is approaching.. (I can give in to the impulse or decide not to (but doesn't always work 100%)) 

Yet since we know about brain plasticity, it must be possible to alter this brain structure.. what do you think? 

[Prometheus Worley]

@Pilgrim I would have to say Yes....it is possible to alter this brain structure, within the context you described. But free will or environment can make a huge impact on what nature has given you from day 1. Nature and nurture (Biology & Environment) work in tandem in shaping who we start out as (at birth) and who we eventually develop into. I've worked literally with hundreds of patients and clients when I was both a Emergency Medical Specialist as well as a Personal Trainer, and have seen how biology (genetically predisposed disease pathology) placed somewhat serious limitations on clients (regarding their health and physical ability). I've also seen how a strategically  supportive structured environment (continual physical fitness training, therapy, conscious & subconscious encouragement, lifestyle changes, nutritional, career, and environmental changes) had the power, not only to override predisposed genetic conditions, but also to completely change and enhance a clients personality and behavior.

One could say that neural plasticity occurred within those key areas of their brains through the repetitive (environmental) use of those key factors I mentioned above. Each case was different. Some patients /clients, due to the biological as well as psychological state they were already in upon initial examination, only achieved moderate success in achieving their goals, some minimal. Overall, after successive continual physical training and psychological encouragement, I'd have to say their biology seemed to only play a small part in limiting what they did achieve.

These examples are only from my personal experience , and what I have witnessed. Is it possible that nature (biology) controls a higher degree or puts limitations on what one could achieve? Of course. Trust me when I say, as much as I love to run,  if I could run a mile in under 60 seconds I absolutely would everyday of the week...Lol.

[Nahm]

@Pilgrim What if everything that you assume happened right up until that post, from the Big Bang, through evolution, all scientific research, every single memory you have, anything you’ve ever said or done, is, in actuality, - this instant. No past whatsoever. If it just now started, and all of what you call a past is really just information that “loaded up”, to give you a trajectory and cover up how you “got here”, thus, allowing this experience to not only seem real, but to seem as if there is perfect continuity of an entire life thus far. What if that is the case, and you are all that is, and you are completely free to do anything at all. Then, how would you see “neuroplasticity”?

[Pilgrim]

@Prometheus WorleyWow, that's so interesting. Thank you for sharing your experience with me. But essentially, I would say you changed the inherent brain structure.. I sort of start to believe nature vs. nurture is essentially the same thing, just approached from a different angle. But the basis is that your neural structure sort of defines your behaviour, but it is possible to change the neural structure through exercise, healthy diet, psychological support etc. (environment) and simultaneously you will have a subconscious program that conditions you in a certain way that can be approached through different therapy as well and thus alters your primal brain structure to some degree, but there will still be limits according to your biology. Interesting. 

What would you say about a "strong will"? Is it biology or environment or both? Is the strong will that gives you the determination to work on yourself basically ego? 

[Forestluv]

@Pilgrim I think you are placing a lot of emphasis on internal vs. external environments. Imo, it’s best to balance this with a perspectives that internal/external is so intimate and integrated that boundaries become arbitrary.

Internal /external is so intimate that if we look closely, it’s hard to separate the two. Exactly where does your inernal start and end? For example, the microbiome of bacteria, viruses and fungi in your gut help regulate your metabolism, immune system and brain chemustry. The microbiome is directly linked to tge brain via the vagus nerve. Alterations or removal of the microbiome alter mind-body function and can result in serious illnesses. So, is this microbiome nature or nurture? Is it part of your internal ir expern world? Is it part of “you” or outside “you”?

[Pilgrim]

16 minutes ago, Nahm said:

What if everything that you assume happened right up until that post, from the Big Bang, through evolution, all scientific research, every single memory you have, anything you’ve ever said or done, is, in actuality, - this instant. No past whatsoever. If it just now started, and all of what you call a past is really just information that “loaded up”, to give you a trajectory and cover up how you “got here”, thus, allowing this experience to not only seem real, but to seem as if there is perfect continuity of an entire life thus far. What if that is the case, and you are all that is, and you are completely free to do anything at all. Then, how would you see “neuroplasticity”?

I didn't have any awakening moments or anything like that so far, I can grasp some of it intellectually.. but I really have no direct experience. I am open to the fact, that I know nothing.. but I definitely experience the physical world right now and I want to find out who I as mind and body am in my most authentic way. Yet I have a few challenges here because I have ADD and thus executive functioning does not work that well, that's why I'm interested in neuroplasticity to handle my weaknesses better. And frankly, I find it fascinating. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

So, is this microbiome nature or nurture? Is it part of your internal ir expern world? Is it part of “you” or outside “you”?

yes I guess that is hard to tell, but essentially you cannot really change your innate biology that much (to a certain degree you can influence it through medication which will have negative effects as well), but through certain activities it seems likely to alter this given biology a bit. 

The way I see it, we are given a certain set of cards by birth. This comprises external factors (environment) and internal factors (biology). Now within our life we have the chance to play these cards well, which for me means to become the most authentic version of yourself. There might be a certain range within you can move your cards and at the highest end you will have understood your cards the best way you can and found ways to enhance your natural strengths and soften your natural weaknesses. But mostly you are true to yourself and not trying to be someone you are clearly not. 

[Forestluv]

@Pilgrim That all assumes that a personal self exists and there is an internal reality separate from an external reality. If we allow those assumptions, then there is still a spectrum of influence between biological inheritance and environment. If someone inherits a mutant allele of the Huntington gene, they will get Huntington's disease. Period. Environment is a nonfactor. Similarly, if someone contracts the Dengue virus from the environment they will get Dengue fever. Genetics has very little impact.

Most other traits are more complex and involve varying degrees of influence from genetics and environment. For example, the onset of Schizophrenia involves an interplay between genetics and environment. It’s thought that a few dozen genes are involved wich contribute yo about 65% of risk, and 35% risk from environment. 

The extremes are much more straightforward. Once you have an interplay between genetics and environment, it gets incredibly complex. We are talking trillions of input points. It is far too complex for a human mind to comprehend - too complex for a group of minds to comprehend. We are currently designing A.I. to synthesize/analyze data and genetate models.

[Prometheus Worley]

@Pilgrim Love the question!!...makes me think of Nietzche's "Will to Power" axiom and his phenomenal book "Thus Spoke Zarathustra". I do think that "strong will" you mention is first and foremost a direct result of environment, in regards to learning, let's say, how to motivate one self to adopt a particular beneficial behavioral trait or manifest a specific end goal. When it comes to biology, on a psychological and physiological level, that "strong will" may manifest itself in the form of "Fight or Flight" when we perceive something as being dangerous or a threat to our safety / well being.

2 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

Is the strong will that gives you the determination to work on yourself basically ego? 

To this question I'd definitely say yes. In this instance ego is not a bad thing. Unfortunately, in many parts of the world, over time, ego has gotten a bad rap. We all need a healthy balanced sense of ego. A certain amount of positive healthy ego is needed in many areas within our lives, as well as during various times throughout our lives. In various areas like relationships, career, personal goals were striving for, competitive endeavors, having a strong sense of self-confidence, self-esteem, and balanced ego is literally vital for our well being.

Life can be extremely complicated and quite challenging. Many times unforseen events like job loss, financial bankruptcy, home loss, or even divorce, can throw your life in such a tailspin that, your sense of self as well as self-worth is utterly destroyed. Believe me when I say, from personal experience as well as from many others I have met in therapeutic support groups, a certain amount of ego is need initially to help you get back on your feet.

Many may disagree with that statement, but I have found over the years, usually those who have been through such challenges and personal crisis, can truly understand where i'm coming from regarding needing help from your ego.

I believe one the keys to achieving a well balanced ego as well as positively transforming both mind (neuro-plasticity) & body resides in engaging in a few of the following modalities:,

1) various types of therapy & techniques,

2) learning from life experiences, reading books,

3) constructing that exact type of environment that will help you facilitate achieving your specific goals,

4) attending lectures & events to try to understand ourselves better and where our beliefs and biases may arises from,

5) meditation,

6) a healthy progressive nutritional & fitness-oriented lifestyle,

7) a good core group of supportive friends and family, (people who accept you unconditionally)

8) a great best friend that you can honestly confide in and will tell you the truth even when you don't what to hear it,

9) learning when & how to remove yourself from negative influences and habits,

10) developing a healthy sense of patience with yourself and others,

11) Accepting and appreciating yourself for who and what you are,

12) Learning to forgive & love yourself, realizing that we all (everyone on this planet makes mistakes, falls down, makes a bad choice, does things that are absolutely crazy..Lol)

13) Knowing that you can develop resilience, and competency in any area of your life no matter what your present circumstance maybe.

14) Knowing that all things are temporary and change...life is peppered with both good times and bad times.

15) engaging in fun & challenging hobbies and activities that help you grow further along your desired goals,

16) having and nurturing a real sense of adventure throughout your life.

15) engaging in some international travel (learning to see the world through others perspective), and

16) overall continual life learning.

 

Here are a few books that were recommended to me by friends, which helped alot:

1-Meditation In Action ( you can get this on Audible and Amazon)

https://www.shambhala.com/meditation-in-action-1018.html

2- Willpower Doesn't Work (You can get this on Audible and Amazon as well)

https://www.willpowerdoesntwork.com/book-bonus-giveaway

3- The Farther Reaches of Human Nature (Available on Amazon)

4-Blindspot (Available on Amazon)

http://blindspot.fas.harvard.edu/

Edited December 18, 2018 by Prometheus Worley
Had to make some corrections

[Pilgrim]

14 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

The extremes are much more straightforward. Once you have an interplay between genetics and environment, it gets incredibly complex. We are talking trillions of input points. It is far too complex for a human mind to comprehend - too complex for a group of minds to comprehend. We are currently designing A.I. to synthesize/analyze data and genetate models.

 

yes i agree. It is incredibly complex.. and new factors are constantly changing the current situation. There are various outcomes that are within possibility and they change every given moment, because you yourself encounter new situations every given moment. This way the likely possibilities are constantly adapted to the way you are - in the current moment. Yet I believe there is a you that is your authentic self, and I don't believe that it changes that much in its core. It's just quite difficult to get to the core of this authentic self.. for instance I have done lot's and lot's of journaling and I am still not totally sure about my true motives.. but I know now that I do prefer quality over quantity in basically everything. This turned out to be true for me and I don't think it will ever change again.. I was deluding myself before because I had low self-esteem and wanted to be liked by everyone. But I know now that it's not possible and I would much rather have only a core group of friends that really gets me. I want intimate authentic connections and I don't believe that this need will ever change, because it's aligned with my true motives. 

14 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

That all assumes that a personal self exists and there is an internal reality separate from an external reality. 

In the absolute all of the above is probably irrelevant. Yet I have no direct experience concerning the absolute.. at least none I am aware of. But I believe that all of this is a process and I think aligning yourself with your true self and developing a strong healthy sense of self is needed in order to see through this "illusion". I think Leo mentioned it in his counter-intuitiveness video as well.. it's counterintuitive, but in order to realise no-self you need a strong self first.  

----

Edit: That's the irony.. in a sense I believe it is totally irrelevant because I do believe that it is actually an illusion. Yet in order to reach the point where you can grasp this illusion, you have to take it very seriously and do your best to become the truest version of "you" (because this will also give you a calm mind). And since I believe that the world is - in it's uttermost nature - a paradox, I have a feeling that I am on the right track. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Pilgrim

[Nahm]

19 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

I didn't have any awakening moments or anything like that so far, I can grasp some of it intellectually.. but I really have no direct experience. I am open to the fact, that I know nothing.. but I definitely experience the physical world right now and I want to find out who I as mind and body am in my most authentic way. Yet I have a few challenges here because I have ADD and thus executive functioning does not work that well, that's why I'm interested in neuroplasticity to handle my weaknesses better. And frankly, I find it fascinating. 

Not sure how relevent that is. 

Consider that you are repeating everything you would like “neuroplasticity” to change. 

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Pilgrim  What stood out to me in your post was what seemed like a desire to change your entire personality. On one hand, a big part of PD work is to evolve... that said, there is a difference between wanting to work on your dysfunctional personality quirks, and wanting to change who you are completely (to the extent medications etc could transform you) .... I have no expertise here, and no real wisdom, my only insight is that, possibly, there is a chance that self-acceptance may be of benefit for you here... I don't know...